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Press fit external bb Phil Wood bearings for Klein

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Press fit external bb Phil Wood bearings for Klein

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Old 01-11-19, 02:01 PM
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masi61
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Press fit external bb Phil Wood bearings for Klein


I’m moving forward with building up this pre-Trek Klein Quantum road bike build. I want to run modern Shimano Cranks so the factory bearings with square taper bottom bracket were removed (by me).

Phil Wood makes pressfit bearings for Klein so I bought a set. They were about $160. I was getting ready to just use a bottom bracket (or headset) bearing press with the appropriate size press bushings so that I don’t damage the bearings. I have a Wheels Manufacturing deluxe bottom bracket bearing press that has these all purpose stepped bushings but these look like none of them will work.

So I called the service department at Phil Wood and talked to Leroy just now. I told him that I got no instruction sheet with the pressfit bearings. I told him that I assumed that they were “plug and play” for the Klein road 75.5mm proprietary bottom bracket shell. He immediately said that the bb shell will need to be faced down to 68mm, that 4mm will have to be faced from each side by a bike shop that knows what they are doing.

He apologized for the sales department not explaining this important detail to me.

He he said that if I run modern Shimano mountain cranks then I could face the bb down to 73mm- much less material to remove. I told him that for road use, I need a big chainring of at least 50 teeth.

I’m sort of bummed that my project has this (latest) setback. I believe that Leroy knows what he is talking about but I worry that shaving 8 mm of aluminum off my frame is going to mess it up in a way that will make for no turning back.

He said that if I just pressed the cups in as-is into the 76mm bb shell, that when I tighten the crank arms down I will damage the bearings. I told him that I thought the geometry of these external press fit cups was thinner than a comparable Shimano external bottom bracket bearing to account for the wider bb shell. He maintained that for road, that shell needs to come down to 68mm.

This bums me out to the point where I might just reinstall my Klein square taper bb and install a Dura Ace 7410 square taper crank with some 52x38 chainrings and run that setup instead.

If any of the vintage Klein folks have done this bb bearing conversion and can speak to the need to face the bottom bracket - I would really appreciate you sharing your experiences about the process....

Regards, from Bill.

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Old 01-11-19, 03:52 PM
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It sounds like the "Phil Wood pressfit bearings" are actually bearings contained in external cups.

It's pretty obvious that external bottom bracket bearings need a certain amount of width to support a durable-enough width of bearing.

The Shimano crankset gives 86mm of spindle length to accommodate that total width of bb shell and cups. That's equal to 68mm of shell plus only 9mm of bearing/cup on each end, and the 9mm isn't something that you can take away from.

How about finding direct-fit bearings with a 24mm ID to press-fit into your bb shell?
I'm not sure if the 76mm (instead of the intended 86mm) outside width of installed-flush bearings would properly support the spindle. But what about if possibly-wider bearings could be installed which overhang the bb shell by at least some of the 5mm deficit on each side? It's a matter then of perhaps finding the "right" bearing for the job, and the ideal bearing would be one which had a widened outer race that allowed for the bearing to be somewhat offset from the bearing's seating area in the bb shell.

As far as re-installing the Klein bb with a 7410 crankset, sounds like an ideal solution as long as you have or can source the appropriate 103mm JIS spindle.

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Old 01-11-19, 04:08 PM
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Originally Posted by dddd View Post
It sounds like the "Phil Wood pressfit bearings" are actually bearings contained in external cups.

It's pretty obvious that external bottom bracket bearings need a certain amount of width to support a durable-enough width of bearing.

The Shimano crankset gives 86mm of spindle length to accommodate that total width of bb shell and cups. That's equal to 68mm of shell plus only 9mm of bearing/cup on each end, and the 9mm isn't something that you can take away from.

How about finding direct-fit bearings with a 24mm ID to press-fit into your bb shell?
I'm not sure if the 76mm (instead of the intended 86mm) outside width of installed-flush bearings would properly support the spindle. But what about if possibly-wider bearings could be installed which overhang the bb shell by at least some of the 5mm deficit on each side? It's a matter then of perhaps finding the "right" bearing for the job, and the ideal bearing would be one which had a widened outer race that allowed for the bearing to be somewhat offset from the bearing's seating area in the bb shell.

As far as re-installing the Klein bb with a 7410 crankset, sounds like an ideal solution as long as you have or can source the appropriate 103mm JIS spindle.
Thanks for your reply. When you say finding he ďrightĒ bearing for the job - I did not think that starting from scratch to get all the critical tolerances and dimensions was going to be required since Phil Wood lists it as an option on their website. I would have thought that they had measured the installed outside to outside width for a Shimano Hollowtech road crankset with 24mm hollow axle and outboard bearing cups and been able to revise the bearings maybe running them inside the bottom bracket shell partway. What I have looks like the Phil Wood version of a Shimano Pressfit external bottom bracket. I guess Iíll take some measurements with my metric dial caliper and compare the standard Shimano road/English threaded bb dimension to the Klein 76mm bb shell/Phil Wood external bb cup dimensions.

If the numbers point point to the shell being faced 4mm off each side like he said, Iím just curious to what extent is the facing going to get close to the aluminum tube welds?
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Old 01-11-19, 04:55 PM
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The whole idea of external bearings is to allow bigger-OD bearings to be used, and to place the bearings in a wider stance to reduce loading.

So the bearings can't be part way in the shell if there is a cup, since the cup has a thickness to it between the bb shell and the bearing.
That's why I suggested the possibility of finding a bearing that mounts without a cup, so that it can be part way in the shell. This would make the most of the available space if you don't want to face down the shell.

On my Klein, there is more than 4mm that can be removed without touching the weld, so there seems no harm in cutting it down if the Phil bb is a good one and if the job is done with proper care.
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Old 01-11-19, 05:26 PM
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I have a coupla pre-Trek Kleins which I run with JIS-square taper bottom bracket spindles and cranks and Phil Wood press-in bearings PW003 ID 17mm OD 35mm W 10mm
But I guess that's not what you're looking to do.
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Old 01-11-19, 05:30 PM
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Originally Posted by randallr View Post
I have a coupla pre-Trek Kleins which I run with JIS-square taper bottom bracket spindles and cranks and Phil Wood press-in bearings PW003 ID 17mm OD 35mm W 10mm
But I guess that's not what you're looking to do.
thanks for the info - Who knows? I might go that route & ditch the external bearing idea.

Is the BB spindle youíre using specifically for Klein?

And did you press in the PW003 bearings yourself?
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Old 01-11-19, 08:43 PM
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If you can find bearings that are 24mm ID x 35mm OD and 10mm wide,they could be pressed in to a depth of 5mm, and the width outside of the bearings would then be 86mm as needed to install the Shimano Hollowtech crank without spacers.

You could also press in the bearings to a slightly greater 7mm depth and use a 2mm spacer on each side to again replicate the 86mm width. You could make a spacer of any thickness to be used only during the press-fitting process to control the depth of the bearings in the frame.

The bearings by themselves are inexpensive, so this is what I would probably do if I could find the 24mm x 35mm bearing I needed.
So as I said before, it's a matter of finding the right bearing for the job, search effort required most likely outside of the bicycle industry.
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Old 01-11-19, 09:11 PM
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Well I just measured the width of the Phil Wood bottom bracket cups and they are 8.7mm wide per side.

I just checked my other road bike with a Dura Ace 7800 crank with 68mm English bottom bracket and Dura Ace 9000 bottom bracket. The 9000 bottom bracket cups protrude 11.8mm per side. So 11.8mm + 11.8mm + 68mm = 91.6mm width.

Comparing that that to the Klein it is 8.7mm +8.7mm + 75.5mm = 92.9mm width.

Or... 1.3mm wider for the Klein. That’s just under 0.7mm wider per side. Hardly the 4mm per side that would need to be professionally faced off with Campagnolo bottom bracket facing Tools. I think I’m going to take what Leroy said with a grain of salt and press these cups in with some grease and try out my Shimano crank. I suspect that the left splined side will have some leeway with the plastic pre-load set screw that you tighten the preload on.

I don’t have a specialty tool for removing press fit cups. If I test fit this as outlined above and find that it isn’t right, what procedure would be used to knock the bottom bracket cups back out again?
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Old 01-12-19, 05:11 AM
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Dumb question maybe, how do you face a Klein without the threaded pilots for the cutter?
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Old 01-12-19, 02:56 PM
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Originally Posted by wesmamyke View Post
Dumb question maybe, how do you face a Klein without the threaded pilots for the cutter?
Ďoh - wow! That is a good question! Iím not really sure.
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Old 01-12-19, 04:40 PM
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Originally Posted by masi61 View Post
Well I just measured the width of the Phil Wood bottom bracket cups and they are 8.7mm wide per side.

I just checked my other road bike with a Dura Ace 7800 crank with 68mm English bottom bracket and Dura Ace 9000 bottom bracket. The 9000 bottom bracket cups protrude 11.8mm per side. So 11.8mm + 11.8mm + 68mm = 91.6mm width.

Comparing that that to the Klein it is 8.7mm +8.7mm + 75.5mm = 92.9mm width.

Or... 1.3mm wider for the Klein. Thatís just under 0.7mm wider per side. Hardly the 4mm per side that would need to be professionally faced off with Campagnolo bottom bracket facing Tools. I think Iím going to take what Leroy said with a grain of salt and press these cups in with some grease and try out my Shimano crank. I suspect that the left splined side will have some leeway with the plastic pre-load set screw that you tighten the preload on.

I donít have a specialty tool for removing press fit cups. If I test fit this as outlined above and find that it isnít right, what procedure would be used to knock the bottom bracket cups back out again?
Wow, I'd forgotten that the Shimano cups were that wide. I recently measured BSA30 threaded cups for 30mm bb spindle and those were just 9mm, which is apparently as thin as they can be made.

The Shimano Hollowtech spline interface is "secured" with a plastic/metal pin retainer that is supposed to fit into the 3mm hole in the splined part of the spindle, to assure that there is sufficient spline engagement before tightening the pinch bolts on the left crankarm.

The outer pinch bolt should be removed so that the retainer can be swung out of the way, and the preload plug then hand-tightened. Then the retainer swings down into place about the inner pinch bolt, with the pin then fitting (or not fitting) into the 3mm hole in the spindle. If the pin lands in the hole, then the outer pinch bolt can be inserted and both bolts torqued repeatedly until they are both tight (tightening one initially tends to loosen the other).

Now, if the pin doesn't fall into the hole, an assessment needs to take place to see how far out of "acceptable" engagement that the splined parts are fitting together.

You would be completely on your own if you decided to either remove the retainer clip or to possibly enlarge the 3mm hole slightly to one side so as to allow the retainer pin to fall into the hole as intended. There is no published data as to how the reliability and safety are affected by using other than the intended amount of splined overlap, and 1.3mm does not sound like much.

Removing the cups is done with a tubular pipe tool with one end splayed in four sections like a headset cup tool, only larger. You could make your own out of metal conduit or could use a drift punch (crude but likely effective).
I would try to take measurements to see how much space can exist between the crankarms WITH the retainer clip pin in the hole in the spindle, then compare to the combined width of the bb shell and the two cups. If it's as close as your numbers suggest, this may work out fine, though the chainline is going to be even further out than it already is in the modern 11s world. So is your frame spacing 130mm already? Longer chainstays (than racing length) would be of help here for reducing chainline angle while using the big chainring, something to consider if you predominantly use the large chainring.

Note that there are also a couple of spacers that typically come installed on Hollowtech cranksets, one looks like a seal and has considerable thickness, perhaps it can be removed (from the inside face of the driveside crankarm)?
The non-driveside arm has a little ring that also acts like a very thin spacer, so see of removing either of these spacers still allows clearance against the face of the bearing on each side.
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Old 01-12-19, 09:05 PM
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Originally Posted by masi61 View Post


thanks for the info - Who knows? I might go that route & ditch the external bearing idea.

Is the BB spindle youíre using specifically for Klein?

And did you press in the PW003 bearings yourself?
The BB spindle is straight through until you get to the flats on the end, so I think the answer to your first question is "yes", since most bb spindles have surfaces for ball bearings to ride on. This BB spindle is made to press through.
The answer to the second question is "No, I had a shop do it. They had the Klein tool" The shop that did this in Denver is Wheat Ridge Cyclery.
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