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Spoke choice for Campy High Flange

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Spoke choice for Campy High Flange

Old 01-15-19, 11:16 PM
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vintagerando 
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Spoke choice for Campy High Flange

Has anyone recently re-laced a Campy High Flange with new spokes? I have little experience with building up a wheel; as a favor a mechanic from my LBS is going to do it with me. I was focusing in on either some Sapim or DT Swiss J bend spokes. But I haven't purchased yet. I came across an old post discussing that the bend on some modern spokes does not work well with old high flange hubs. So, before I pull trigger (and possibly buy the wrong spokes) does anyone have specific experience with high flange, and what brand did you buy?
Thanks.
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Old 01-15-19, 11:40 PM
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I've been using DT spokes on Campy (Edit: very high flanged) Tipos for years and am still running two pairs, both fronts. With a good even tension and a relieved build, I don't see any issues. I've always just figured that any spoke needs to be seated (ie gently bent) to sit correctly. Ride it, maybe a tweak on the truing in the first 1-200 miles.

I've never heard that caution but that might simply be that I don't talk wheelbuilding a lot. I just buy spokes in bulk, rims as needed and build. I break most of my spokes at the rims; I think in large part because I build wheels with more crosses and bigger hub flanges than the spokes holes are aligned for so many spokes take a slight bend at the nipple (with the threads acting as a crack starter). Even with that, I break so few spokes it is hardly an issue. And I use enough, always 32 or 35 that breaking one is never a ride ender. I use my winter wheel spokes through 3 rims before starting with fresh ones.

Ben
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Old 01-15-19, 11:45 PM
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I use Sapim and love them, especially for used hubs wherein the Campy holes have become enlarged.

I can add details tomorrow
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Old 01-15-19, 11:59 PM
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The old spokes (40+ years) are an odd size; 307mm. I used an old Park Tools ruler that has a specific hole for hanging and measuring spokes. To match that exact length bumps the price from $1.00 to $1.40, at least on the Wheelbuilders site. Most sellers want to sell even length 306, 308 etc.
There is a seller on eBay that was recommended here on Bikeforums, "childhood_dreams", whom cuts custom lengths, very affordable but they spokes appear to have no brand-name. I plan to discuss with my buddy-mechanic before buying. I just wanted to figure out if there are specific brands recommended or not recommend to couple with high flange. Thanks to those that respond.
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Old 01-16-19, 08:07 AM
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The 650B wheels that Peter Chisholm (former owner of Vecchio's in Colorado) built for me were high flange and he used washers under the spoke heads.
Pete (Chromolly) has them now. I think.
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Old 01-16-19, 08:13 AM
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My Paramount is set up with Sapim butted spokes. Dunno if one particular ingredient is more important than the rest, but the Campy high-flange hub/Sapim spoke/H+Son TB-14 rim combination delivers a quality ride.
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Old 01-16-19, 08:17 AM
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You can't go wrong with DT, we used them all the time, I couldn't count how many wheels I laced and built with them. Does Wheelsmith still make spokes?

I used to enjoy wheel building and had some great guys to help me out. I learned to lace wheels first and I'd that and hand them off to one of the more experience guys to finish up. I slowly worked up to tensioning them and then handing off for finish work to doing everything on my own. However I only learned 3 cross and of course radil (which is harder when it comes to finishing the wheel) and sadly never learned the od patterns like 4 cross, crowsfoot or twisting spokes.
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Old 01-16-19, 09:54 AM
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...I built up three sets of Campy high flange hubs earlier in the fall into wheels using DT spokes and Sun M 13ii rims. These were 700c rims, and at cross three they worked well with spokes that were 290 in the front and 289/290 in the back. There were no issues with the bend fitting the hub flange. I used no washers.

It is a little tougher to feed the spokes through the holes in one of these hubs to lace them, but it has nothing to do with the bend at the spoke head..

Unless you're building some kind of 630 rim, not a 622, that length sounds long to me, but I have no idea what you're using for a rim, and what cross pattern. But if you try to go to extreme in the cross pattern (like to cross 4), you can run into some issues with the spoke heads interfering with the run line of the spoke.

Last edited by 3alarmer; 01-16-19 at 09:57 AM.
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Old 01-16-19, 11:08 AM
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The bend of new spokes is put towards using new hubs, aluminium hubs. Some problems arise when you use new spokes which have a longer bend to lace older steel hubs. You should be okay if hubs are aluminium. Now, the issue of which is better for HF hubs, straight or DB spokes is another consideration.
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Old 01-16-19, 11:25 AM
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FWIW, 4 cross works just fine with campy high flange hubs. 4x was neither unusual or extreme when these hubs were popular.

It's IMO a mistake to use excessive spoke tension on vintage hubs.
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Old 01-16-19, 11:56 AM
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Originally Posted by vintagerando View Post
There is a seller on eBay that was recommended here on Bikeforums, "childhood_dreams", whom cuts custom lengths, very affordable but they spokes appear to have no brand-name. I plan to discuss with my buddy-mechanic before buying. I just wanted to figure out if there are specific brands recommended or not recommend to couple with high flange. Thanks to those that respond.
I buy all my spokes from childhood_dreams. I believe he uses Sapim exclusively. Every set I bought had Sapim decals included. He cuts to the nearest whole length, from 45mm to 309mm

Last edited by rickrob; 01-16-19 at 12:04 PM. Reason: Added info
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Old 01-16-19, 12:04 PM
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DT, Wheelsmith, Sapim, I've used them all. Anybody that prefers one over the other is either a professional wheelbuilder or likes to pick nits.
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Old 01-16-19, 01:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Bianchigirll View Post
You can't go wrong with DT, we used them all the time, I couldn't count how many wheels I laced and built with them. Does Wheelsmith still make spokes?

I used to enjoy wheel building and had some great guys to help me out. I learned to lace wheels first and I'd that and hand them off to one of the more experience guys to finish up. I slowly worked up to tensioning them and then handing off for finish work to doing everything on my own. However I only learned 3 cross and of course radil (which is harder when it comes to finishing the wheel) and sadly never learned the od patterns like 4 cross, crowsfoot or twisting spokes.
4 cross trues up just like 3 cross. Only difference is the lacing (and longer spokes). (And I'll argue the point that 4 cross is "odd" No, by my math, 3 cross is odd and 4 cross even!) Now, twisted spokes is just that; twisted.


gugie , 01-16-19 10:04 AM
DT, Wheelsmith, Sapim, I've used them all. Anybody that prefers one over the other is either a professional wheelbuilder or likes to pick nits.

I haven't used Sapims. (The ones that I've seen were a lot more expensive than DT. I break very few DTs so I see no reason to pay the extra cash and I build all my wheels and 4 cross so broken spokes are never a ride ender.) DT vs Wheelsmith is simply who has what when I need them. The past decade and a half, that has been DT, but if Wheelsmith gets into the shops I go to, my wheels will have them. It is not hard to make spokes that are strong and well made. (I do thoroughly enjoy lacing up wheels with exact lengths and depths of threading. I remember well my days of building race wheels with the galvanized (and cheap) Robergel Sports (that were as light as DT Revolutions). Strong. They built very good wheels but ... the lengths and depths of threading were all over the place, It took a long time to get the basic loose, evenly tensioned spokes with a wheel in the ballpark for true to start tightening and truing. And 3 spokes per set of wheels broke early on. Always. Once they were replaced, those wheels rolled on for many thousands of miles trouble free. Building my first Wheelsmith wheel was a joyous revelation. So fast to lace up and start! No broken spokes! Gleaming SS! And ultimate wheel life was the same.

Ben
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Old 01-16-19, 01:13 PM
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RE galvanized spokes - yeah, they were standard spokes once. I recall when stainless spokes were still viewed with some suspicion, and many people considered them to be excessively flashy. Some people felt zinc plated spokes were better. I don't remember what the rationale was, but there was one.

Don't forget Berg Union.

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Old 01-16-19, 02:53 PM
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Originally Posted by 79pmooney View Post
4 cross trues up just like 3 cross. Only difference is the lacing (and longer spokes). (And I'll argue the point that 4 cross is "odd" No, by my math, 3 cross is odd and 4 cross even!) Now, twisted spokes is just that; twisted.
Ben
Well you know what I mean

I am not sure the purpose of this other than a super stiff funky looking wheel but..


I have a pair of 'crowsfoot' laced wheels that one 9of the great guiys at D&Q in So Jersey built for me. Hard to get a good pic of them so this from the 'net

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Old 01-16-19, 08:56 PM
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For the last set of Record hubs I built up (last winter, actually), I used Sapim spokes and they were fine. But I've used DT, Wheelsmith, and even Robergel, Union, and Torrington over the years. I suspect you'll be fine with any decent quality spokes.
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Old 01-22-19, 02:39 PM
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Had these wheels built by Strada Handbuilt Wheels in Worthing Sussex UK for a vintage Grubb racer. Ridden both sets since with no problems, never had to take them back for retentioning or any other problems.

Vintage Campag Record Hubs have not been a problem either. Photos show them before they were ridden



NOS 700 Mavic Open SUP Rims, Record 28 spoke Rear Hub dated 1958 and never laced, Record 28 spoke Front Hub late 60's. SAPIM Double Butted SS Spokes



NOS 27" Weinmann LP18 Rims on late 60's 36 spoke Record Hubs, SAPIM Double butted SS Spokes

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Old 01-23-19, 12:46 AM
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Do you know what size you need? This seller (https://www.ebay.com/sch/dennishchic...1&_ipg=&_from=) has a lot of nice vintage spokes (and other goodies) if you're interested in going that route. I've built hi-flange wheels with Robergel, DT, Sapin, Wheelsmith spokes, and maybe a couple others. I really like Robergel spokes--light weight, smooth tapers, excellent quality--but you have to be sure you get the correct (French-threaded) nipples. No experience building with Stella spokes (just using them), but that would be a good option for a vintage Italian bike/wheelset.
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Old 01-23-19, 05:08 AM
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I have a set of record high flange hubs that came with Stella butted spokes. Quite a few miles on them and only had to true them once. They are dated 1971 and came off an early Frejus racer. I also have a set of Tipo hubs(1971) that I laced myself to Wienman 700's with butted spokes of unknown brand but Stainless Steel material. I think with all spokes when building wheels ( I am not an expert) you should seat the spoke at the hub end before tensioning or truing the wheel. That is what I was told by a local bike shop where I found the spokes(NOS). The head of the spoke usually lays pretty flat against the hub chamfer when seated properly. Joe
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Old 01-23-19, 05:38 AM
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I just built up a set of Campy NR low flange using DT Competition spokes 2mm. I'd read there wouldn't be a problem with the bends. Not sure the thickness of the high flange hubs but I had trouble with every spoke making the bend. Not really 'trouble', but I did have to gently bend each spoke. Didn't take long at all and after tensioning all seated perfectly.
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