styggno1

Exactly and it is the only double diamond on the frame.

SweetPete10

SweetPete10

SweetPete10

SweetPete10

Giacomo 1 

Wow, that is pretty darn close, isn't it?

Probably came over in the same shipment and maybe even went to the same shop. Can you guys figure out if that might be true?

styggno1

Some fun findings thru the years. I am sorry but I have no idea where I got the pictures. Let us call it for what it is - I have stolen them off the net.

This one has the same BB marking as mine "RW" and has the same under the BB cable routing. Mine is a 11 348 and this one is 11 342. Just some frames apart. The "RW" and the under the BB routing maybe and might suggest a batch for dealer. But knowing for sure is something completely different.




And this one (unknown serial) has the same symbol on the frame (decal on top tube) as on my frame mounted pump (blurry symbol in the lower part of the pic). The handlebar symbol and letters sure look like "Witt" or "Wuitt". Does it have anything to do with the W in "RW"!? Who knows... Input wellcome on the handlebar symbol.




This third one (said to be from 1977) has a later serial but on top of BB routing




To make it even more intriguing here is a typical Emiliano Freschi Pogliaghi build - fast back stays, with a serial (11 352) just four frames later than mine and and some more to the first frame above. Freschi is said to have been the head builder during the later years - but still under Santes reign. Later Basso Pogs kept the fast back stay arrangement - and I would say it is a Freschi thing - not a Pogliaghi thing. Not that it matters really as they are all nice.



And as reference here is a Freschi Supreme. Striking resemblance is it not...





It is clear it was a small operation with a lot of variation - open to customer choices. Going thru the serial number list on classic rendezvous and looking at years coupled to the serials the production was low. It is said it was a six man operation in the 70ies but I do not believe it is a verified number. And if they were six - did they all build/braze? Probably not. Looking at the numbers per year, as a whole, it does seem to have been a true handbuilding shop.

I feel lucky to have one. I would have felt even more happy being in the 8-9000 range but one cannot have it all - all the time ;-)

Giacomo 1 

Great post @styggno1! A lot of good info there and more intrigue. Funny how bikes built so closely together can be so different.

I had no idea that Freschi bikes had any connection to Pogliaghi, but looking at some of the details, especially the similar decals, I can now see it more clearly. I wondered where Basso got the fast-back stays, because we know Pogliaghi never had them and Rossin didn't use the fast back style either when they took over, but for some reason they re-appeared when Basso took over.

Funny thing is, every Basso Pog I have seen, including the Pog frames they still make to this day, have fast back stays - except mine. If you zoom in on the pics I posted on the first page, you can see mine has large, deeply scalloped type of stay caps, without any pantographing, which I have not seen on any other Pog, old or new. I did buy mine from an overseas seller, so may be it is a European model? Not sure, but it is certainly unique.

By-the-way, I love that Pog green. Definitely a stand-out color.

joesch

Spectacular museum quality pog bike!

AZORCH

Just to add another data point or two to the purported Freschi connection, here are some details from my ca. late 80's Freschi Supreme Super Cromo. I've done quite a lot of research into that story, including several first and second hand interviews with folks connected to importing the frames. I was never able to conclusively confirm or deny if he was the "chief engineer" for Pog or not. (Negri comes up as an alternative option.) Either way, it's intriguing and all just a part of the wonderfully mysterious back story.

Giacomo 1 

Gorgeous bike and nice addition to the thread Mr AZORCH!

But now I am really confused. So Freschi likely became the chief builder at Pogliaghi sometime in the late 70's, Pogliaghi then sells the rights to build his bikes to Marc Rossin, then later to Basso, but I guess Freschi went on his own after Mr. Pogliaghi sold out to Rossin? And why did Basso go with the fast-back seat stays of Freschi and not the more standard caps of Pogliaghi? Was there a connection between the Basso brothers and Freschi?

How rare are the Freschi's, both during his years at Pogliaghi and when he went on his own? I must admit, I haven't seen to many myself.

styggno1

There are quite a few nice builders that has been working with/at Sante Pogliaghi.

Freschi - according to the Bikeology catalog of 1980 - he worked there for 16 years.





Yoshiaki Nagasawa for 18 months and then he went to Ugo De Rosa for four years before returning to Japan.

https://www.cyclist.co.uk/in-depth/2...kshop-in-osaka

Mario Camilotto circa 1978 to 1983 - and then bikes under his own name "Camilotto" and building Cinellis between 1988 and 1991

mariocamilotto



A lot of talent present at that place...

Choke 

Wow, that is close. Thanks for pinning down the year for me, I've always wondered about that.

Doug Fattic 

I visited Pogliaghi's shop in the late 70's as well as several other builders around Milan. Because I was/am a frame builder I understood what I was seeing. What I recall was about 4 guys (give or take 1 or 2) hustling around in a fairly small area building frames. I didn't notice what division of labor they used. For example was one guy making forks and another doing chain stays to dropouts? Santa appeared to be actively overseeing the whole operation without actually handling a torch or file himself. It wasn't polite to hang around a long time so I didn't. I certainly thought they were doing a better job than the old nam and young guy building Cinellis.

I didn't speak any Italian so somehow with hand gestures and limited English they thought I was an English builder but eventually I got it across I had learned in England but built in America. Somehow Sante seemed somewhat annoyed with this revision of knowledge and I don't know if that was a reflection of where he thought I was from or something else. It certainly seemed to change his attitude about my being there so I didn't hang around much longer.

Giacomo 1 

That's a cool story.

While in the Air Force, I was actually stationed in beautiful Italy in 1983, but unfortunately I wasn't thinking about bikes much back then. The food, the girls and the sights, and not in that order, had my attention. What a chance I missed to visit some of the great builders and their shops. Heck, living there I likely could have become friends with them. Missed opportunity...

BlueDevil63 

My '69-70 ItalCorse. The frame was painted by CyclArt and the decals are NOS original decals purchased from the Pogliaghi shop in the late 60s. I believe all the components to be period correct including the PATENT rear derailleur and chrome arm and cable stop front derailleur.
Components:

• Cinelli Unicanitor saddle
• Campagnolo Record seat post
• Cinelli 'Milano' stem
• Cinelli handlebars
• first year Campagnolo Record 'no name' brakes
• Campagnolo Record headset
• Regina Corse freewheel
• Regina chain
• Campagnolo Nuovo Record rear derailleur, PATENT
• Campagnolo Nuovo Record crankset, no date code
• Campagnolo Record front derailleur, chrome arm, cable stop
• Campagnolo Record shift levers, black backing plates
• Campagnolo high flange Record hubs, laced to Super Champion tubular rims
• Newbaums cloth handlebar tape

abellanti

I have a newer Basso build Pog as a daily rider, but still looking for a 60s-70s Sante build in my size.

styggno1

I just had an eyegasm...

Giacomo 1 

That is just ridiculously beautiful! It looks better than the day it rolled out of Sante's shop. He would be so proud to see this one.

Anyone with an original have a ride report they could share? Looks like it would be fast, yet plush at the same time.

kohl57

Ride qualities are so subjective, I am hesitant to give them. My '73 Pog is an ideal "all day in the saddle" machine, "neutral" in its handling in that 70s Italian manner and am pretty sure the bb on these is a tad lower than other Italian machines of the era so the ride is indeed "plush" and the road dampening qualities are superb. Italian roads of the era didn't hold a candle to French or British ones so I suspect this influenced what Italian frame makers liked in a racing bicycle. So if you don't like really aggressive, "twitchy" and light handling machines, they are perfect. I like to switch between different types and savour the distinctive qualities of each so I guess that's why I have 24 racing bikes!

Peter Kohler
Washington DC USA

Giacomo 1 

Thanks for your thoughtful reply.

I do agree that ride qualities are subjective. What one rider feels in a bike, another might not. I think my 78 Colnago Super fits me beautifully and is light on its feet and more aggressive than say my 87 Basso Gap, but the Gap "seems" faster in the end. It always urges me to push harder and go to the next gear. My Barecci is just a solid, stable, no drama ride. My Pog seems very light to the touch so far, in the Colnago mode, and I think its going to be very quick, although I have yet to really stretch its legs.

Like you, I like the differences as well, but I don't have 24 bikes! Very cool!

Giacomo 1 

That's a nice set-up you have on your Pog. Its lovely in red as well.

Do you know what year yours is? I'm trying to figure out when they went with the fast back seat stays. Mine doesn't have them and I believe mine is a 93, if the first two numbers of the serial code means the year. Although I somehow recall the seller saying it was a 91. So not really sure.

abellanti

thanks...not sure what year they started the fast back seat stays...but my bike is actually a 2013 ...I think...model..when Basso reintroduced the line. It's almost identical to the frames they built in nineties, however has slightly over sized tubes.

SweetPete10

madpogue 

This frameset came up on the Madison CL a couple days ago. Small-ish. At least the SP pantographed shifters are still with it.

https://madison.craigslist.org/bik/d...168315704.html

50.5 cm C-C Pogliaghi frame - $150 (Madison)