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Who are the Top 5 Italian craftsmen of all time?

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Who are the Top 5 Italian craftsmen of all time?

Old 01-23-19, 08:00 AM
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Who are the Top 5 Italian craftsmen of all time?

What's your list of Top 5 Italian bike craftsmen of all time?
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Old 01-23-19, 08:32 AM
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Of the major Italian builders, where would you put each in regards to hierarchy?

Black bear. Beets. Battle star galactica.
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Old 01-23-19, 08:33 AM
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Old 01-23-19, 08:52 AM
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And are they classic or vintage?
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Old 01-23-19, 09:09 AM
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Classically vintage!
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Old 01-23-19, 09:12 AM
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Originally Posted by RobbieTunes View Post
And are they classic or vintage?
I guess I was thinking an actual Top 5 list of the person, not the company (it's ok if they are one in the same of course). The list should have at least some C&V to each person (i.e. if they are still making frames they better have been making them since at least the 80s, if not earlier.)
Take all things into account: prestige, skill, history, palmares, etc. If they also paint then that's bonus points (like Pegoretti).

So, I'll give an example with my very limited knowledge.

1) Cino Cinelli
2) Ernesto Colnago
3) Ugo De Rosa
4) Irio Tommasini
5) Dario Pegoretti

Etc etc.
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Old 01-23-19, 09:23 AM
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Sophia Loren.
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Old 01-23-19, 09:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Wileyone View Post
Sophia Loren.
She's well crafted.
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Old 01-23-19, 09:49 AM
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some old dude.


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Old 01-23-19, 10:04 AM
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Originally Posted by shoota View Post
I guess I was thinking an actual Top 5 list of the person, not the company (it's ok if they are one in the same of course). The list should have at least some C&V to each person (i.e. if they are still making frames they better have been making them since at least the 80s, if not earlier.)
Take all things into account: prestige, skill, history, palmares, etc. If they also paint then that's bonus points (like Pegoretti).

So, I'll give an example with my very limited knowledge.

1) Cino Cinelli
2) Ernesto Colnago
3) Ugo De Rosa
4) Irio Tommasini
5) Dario Pegoretti

Etc etc.
Well put.

Chirico is still doing frames, I think, for at least 1) above, and forks for many, many. The industry was so wide-spread, relatively, in Italy, and remains so, relatively. I'm just not up on them. Pinarello, of course, is still producing product, shall we say, but I'm not sure about them still doing steel.

America, by a wide margin, has the widest group of talented, quality boutique steel frame builders around, many who are really good and never show a bike at NAHBS. The market is basically here, as far as viability, right now.
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Old 01-23-19, 10:15 AM
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**Leonardo da Vinci Bicycle Hoax

Text of a paper presented at the 8th International Conference on Cycling History, Glasgow School of Art, August 1997 by Prof. Dr. Hans-Erhard Lessing

"News of a bicycle-like sketch said to have been discovered during the ten-year restoring period of Leonardo da Vinci’s Codex Atlanticus popped up in 1974, when literary historian Augusto Marinoni gave a lecture in Vinci, Leonardo’s birthplace. From the chronology of disclosures and (in part circumstantial) evidence, it is now becoming clear that we are dealing with a recent forgery."


The discoverer's surname is "Marinoni"...Move along, nothing to see here! Don
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Old 01-23-19, 10:23 AM
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Thats a tough question, as there are so many really good Italian builders out there. I'm sure there will be a lot of disagreement, but I'll give it a shot. I figure by the time this thread reaches 10 pages, every Italian builder will be mentioned!

Ernesto Colnago - While Ernesto didn't really do any building on his own, he revolutionized the industry through his unique geometry and salesmanship. A few here will not like this pick, but his importance in the industry is undeniable.

Sante Polgiaghi - he was considered a true master builder and his bikes are still highly sought after.

Irio Tommasini - simply beautiful bikes

Ugo DeRosa - again, very tasteful bikes

Basso Brothers - not normally considered at the top, but I think they are some of the best riders out there so I have to include them and they are still very much in business these days as well.
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Old 01-23-19, 12:00 PM
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FWIW, this is said to be Tullio's pick.



Then there are others who came later...Pegoretti for instance. Does he bump someone from the list?

And where do you place someone like Losa, who mostly built bikes with other names on the downtube including some of those on the shirt above? If they felt that his work was good enough to bear their name then it must have been highly regarded by those other builders.
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Old 01-23-19, 12:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Choke View Post
And where do you place someone like Losa, who mostly built bikes with other names on the downtube including some of those on the shirt above? If they felt that his work was good enough to bear their name then it must have been highly regarded by those other builders.
Agreed on that thought process. I don't know who that is but I'm sure he was great.
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Old 01-23-19, 12:27 PM
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Originally Posted by shoota View Post
Agreed on that thought process. I don't know who that is but I'm sure he was great.
Giovanni Losa. It's an open secret that his shop built the Cinelli Supercorsas from the early/middle 90s until 2008.

This is what Richard Sachs had to say on another forum -
drift -
i was at losa's shop in 1979 and sent there by
antonio columbo for reasons that had to do with
my then italophiliac (is that a word?) framebuilding
interests. gianni losa's shop was the stuff of legends,
and remided me of the scene in the man with the golden
gun when bond meets the gunsmith. the shop was like
a lab and quite unlike what i had seen elsewhere in
milan and the veneto region. in addition to showing
me everything i asked about and wanted to see done
(his way), he also showed me the room where all the
panto-ed frame parts were kept for when he made
the frames that carried other marques. in that time,
losa frames were the part time gig; his real job was
making the high(er) end frames that we though were
made cross town in cusano milanino or other villages
whose names are familiar here atmo.
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Old 01-23-19, 01:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Choke View Post
Giovanni Losa. It's an open secret that his shop built the Cinelli Supercorsas from the early/middle 90s until 2008.

This is what Richard Sachs had to say on another forum -
That is absolutely fascinating!
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Old 01-23-19, 01:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Choke View Post
FWIW, this is said to be Tullio's pick.



Then there are others who came later...Pegoretti for instance. Does he bump someone from the list?
That's kind of why I added the Basso Brothers. They came a bit later on, but worked with Sante Pogliaghi and it is said that Sante gave Alcede Basso all of his "secrets", and he went with the Basso brothers in order to bring back his good name, which I guess was faltering. Basso is still making a steel framed Pogliaghi, one at a time, among other steelies.

I just can't get into the Pegoretti's. I like loud paint jobs, such as Colnago did, but Pegoretti was on another level and it's really an aquired taste. Wasn't he better known as a painter than a builder?

Is that shirt available anywhere? Very cool.
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Old 01-23-19, 01:42 PM
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In my experience? Likely five guys you've never heard of.
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Old 01-23-19, 02:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Giacomo 1 View Post
I just can't get into the Pegoretti's. I like loud paint jobs, such as Colnago did, but Pegoretti was on another level and it's really an aquired taste. Wasn't he better known as a painter than a builder?
Not all of his paint jobs are wild....Google Pegoretti Luigino for instance. Or this...it's Columbus XCR and the dots are exposed stainless.


As for which is he better known for, building no doubt. He made frames for Indurain, Pantani, Cipollini, Roche and others. There's a post on another forum where the member recounts being at his shop and looking through the build sheets. He said that there were tons of names we'd recognize and that in one year Dario built 14 (IIRC) different frames for Pantani alone as Marco was searching for that 'perfect' frame.

Is that shirt available anywhere? Very cool.
Here you go....Velo-Retro: Vintage T-Shirts: Miscellaneous
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Old 01-23-19, 02:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Choke View Post
Not all of his paint jobs are wild....Google Pegoretti Luigino for instance. Or this...it's Columbus XCR and the dots are exposed stainless.


As for which is he better known for, building no doubt. He made frames for Indurain, Pantani, Cipollini, Roche and others. There's a post on another forum where the member recounts being at his shop and looking through the build sheets. He said that there were tons of names we'd recognize and that in one year Dario built 14 (IIRC) different frames for Pantani alone as Marco was searching for that 'perfect' frame.

Here you go....Velo-Retro: Vintage T-Shirts: Miscellaneous
Good info on Pegoretti. I didn't know he did so much work for the pro riders. Wonder if Pantani ever found that perfect frame? The Pegoretti pictured is very tastefully done, no doubt, and pretty understated for him.

Funny, I was just browsing that site and that page last week and completely missed that t-shirt. Very cool, I'm ordering one now, thanks!
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Old 01-23-19, 02:18 PM
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Old 01-23-19, 03:03 PM
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and of course

Giovanni Pelizzoli

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Old 01-23-19, 03:24 PM
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Of all time? So your are comparing current builders or rather recent builder like De Rosa and Colnago to builders from the '50s? the '30s? Doesn't every generation have it greatest builders?

How do you quantify the best? who has the best ride? who has the smoothest filed lugs?

How long has it been since one 'craftsman' took a pile of tubes and lugs and fit, welded, finished, primed, painted, and prepped a frame? I am sure people like Colnago, Coicc, De Rosa didn't do everything to every frame for very long, did they?
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Old 01-23-19, 03:41 PM
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Gepetto

He built Pinocchio

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Old 01-23-19, 05:52 PM
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Confente
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