Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Classic & Vintage
Reload this Page >

126 to 130 rear wheel spacing casualty Trek 620

Classic & Vintage This forum is to discuss the many aspects of classic and vintage bicycles, including musclebikes, lightweights, middleweights, hi-wheelers, bone-shakers, safety bikes and much more.

126 to 130 rear wheel spacing casualty Trek 620

Old 02-05-19, 05:26 AM
  #26  
bnewberry
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 182
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 59 Post(s)
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by bark_eater View Post
How about the long version with all the prep details, for the newbies who just got a Propane/Mapp turbotorch, and are looking for trouble..
I have been looking on YouTube for this. For this small area I think MAPP alone would work for repair, or would this need MAPP plus air?

What silver braze material would would be best?
bnewberry is offline  
Old 03-15-19, 02:49 PM
  #27  
bnewberry
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 182
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 59 Post(s)
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Repair

I made some time today to do the repair. Here are some attempts at photos of the braze after a quick clean up with 220 then up to 600 grit sand paper. After these photos I hit the bare metal with self etching primer. It will stay like this until warmer weather.


bnewberry is offline  
Old 03-15-19, 03:04 PM
  #28  
Old Yeller
Senior Member
 
Old Yeller's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Indiana
Posts: 398

Bikes: 1987 Trek 1500, 1989 Pinarello Montello, 1998 Trek 7000 MTB

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
Originally Posted by bnewberry View Post
I am in southern Michigan. It is a rural area without much in the way of bike repair. I might be able to find a good hand with a torch.

I agree that it looks like there was little or no penetration in the braze.

If your in south west Michigan you could look up Doug Fattic Cycles in Niles. Heís a local frame builder there that does fantastic work.

https://www.yellowpages.com/niles-mi/doug-fattic-cycles
Old Yeller is offline  
Old 03-15-19, 03:11 PM
  #29  
SurferRosa
Senior Member
 
SurferRosa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Posts: 894

Bikes: old school 531c & campy

Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 370 Post(s)
Liked 47 Times in 33 Posts
Originally Posted by bnewberry
I made some time today to do the repair.
You did it yourself? Looks great! Spray it with clear and go!
SurferRosa is offline  
Old 03-15-19, 03:14 PM
  #30  
ThermionicScott 
hungry
 
ThermionicScott's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: CID
Posts: 18,472

Bikes: 1991 Bianchi Eros, 1964 Armstrong, 1988 Diamondback Ascent, 1988 Bianchi Premio, 1987 Bianchi Sport SX, 1980s Raleigh mixte (hers)

Mentioned: 68 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2028 Post(s)
Liked 98 Times in 81 Posts
Great job, @bnewberry! That joint is likely better than it was originally.
__________________
Originally Posted by chandltp View Post
There's no such thing as too far.. just lack of time
Originally Posted by noglider
People in this forum are not typical.
RUSA #7498
ThermionicScott is offline  
Old 03-15-19, 03:22 PM
  #31  
Duo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 452

Bikes: classic & vintage road bikes, some newer stuff, tandems, and a few mtb's

Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 79 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by bnewberry View Post
I made some time today to do the repair. Here are some attempts at photos of the braze after a quick clean up with 220 then up to 600 grit sand paper. After these photos I hit the bare metal with self etching primer. It will stay like this until warmer weather.


nice job. did you use mapp gas? was this your first time? this has me interested in possibly trying.
Duo is offline  
Old 03-15-19, 03:23 PM
  #32  
bnewberry
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 182
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 59 Post(s)
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by SurferRosa View Post
You did it yourself? Looks great! Spray it with clear and go!
Yes, I did it myself with some Saftey/Silv 56% and a Mapp plus oxygen torch.

Originally Posted by ThermionicScott View Post
Great job, @bnewberry! That joint is likely better than it was originally.
I sure hope so!
bnewberry is offline  
Old 03-15-19, 03:34 PM
  #33  
bnewberry
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 182
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 59 Post(s)
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Duo View Post
nice job. did you use mapp gas? was this your first time? this has me interested in possibly trying.
Yes, I used Mapp with Oxygen. I probably could have used Mapp only but the oxygen added gave me confidence that I could get enough heat fast enough.

This was my first braze, but I am familiar with soldering and the technique is similar, clean the area, flux, heat until the braze material melts on contact with the metal and then be sure to heat where you want the braze to flow. Also use gravity to help.

I gave it a good pull and it feels solid. We will see what happens when I set the rear and ride it!

Was it worth it? Yes! Was it cost effective? No! Total cost was about $100.00. The frame was only $125.00. But it was a good learning experience.

bnewberry is offline  
Old 03-15-19, 03:35 PM
  #34  
52telecaster
ambulatory senior
 
52telecaster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Peoria Il
Posts: 2,646

Bikes: Bob Jackson World Tour, 81 miyata 912 and 86 miyata 312.

Mentioned: 35 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 817 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 21 Times in 10 Posts
How inspiring!
52telecaster is online now  
Old 03-15-19, 03:39 PM
  #35  
Duo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 452

Bikes: classic & vintage road bikes, some newer stuff, tandems, and a few mtb's

Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 79 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by bnewberry View Post


Yes, I used Mapp with Oxygen. I probably could have used Mapp only but the oxygen added gave me confidence that I could get enough heat fast enough.

This was my first braze, but I am familiar with soldering and the technique is similar, clean the area, flux, heat until the braze material melts on contact with the metal and then be sure to heat where you want the braze to flow. Also use gravity to help.

I gave it a good pull and it feels solid. We will see what happens when I set the rear and ride it!

Was it worth it? Yes! Was it cost effective? No! Total cost was about $100.00. The frame was only $125.00. But it was a good learning experience.

imho, worth every penny. you have a new skill, and you inspired us to try this. thanks
Duo is offline  
Old 03-15-19, 05:13 PM
  #36  
Skil
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Posts: 5
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Pretty impressive repair. Iíve spread my 85 Trek 660 to 130mm without issue, but if I ever have an issue... I now know how to repair it. Thanks!
Skil is offline  
Old 03-15-19, 05:15 PM
  #37  
Hudson308 
Mr. Anachronism
 
Hudson308's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: City of Lakes
Posts: 1,531

Bikes: fillet-brazed Chicago Schwinns, and some other stuff

Mentioned: 24 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 342 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 21 Times in 16 Posts
Originally Posted by Duo View Post
imho, worth every penny. you have a new skill, and you inspired us to try this. thanks
Yes, what he said!!! Great job!!!
__________________
"If we don't change direction soon, we'll end up where we're going." -Irwin Corey
Hudson308 is offline  
Old 03-15-19, 05:36 PM
  #38  
madpogue 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Madison, WI USA
Posts: 2,862
Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 650 Post(s)
Liked 49 Times in 42 Posts
Wow, dang nice repair. Did that end up pulling the dropouts back in to 126?
madpogue is online now  
Old 03-15-19, 05:49 PM
  #39  
TiHabanero
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 2,270
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 646 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 20 Times in 19 Posts
"Did that end up pulling the dropouts back in to 126? "

Good question. Inquiring minds want to know.

I have taken junk frames and removed brake bridges, chain stay stiffeners and even drop outs and reused them for repairs. If the drop out spacing is not at 130, this may be your next move.
TiHabanero is offline  
Old 03-15-19, 06:51 PM
  #40  
grayEZrider
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: tennessee
Posts: 273

Bikes: '13 Specialized Elite, KHS 223, '94 Trek 2120, 92 Raleigh technium, '88 Centurion LeMans, '86 Centurion IronMan,'84 Redcay Ross 508

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 65 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
Good work!

Originally Posted by bnewberry View Post


Yes, I did it myself with some Saftey/Silv 56% and a Mapp plus oxygen torch.



I sure hope so!
Wish I'd caught this thread earlier, but you did great. There are two excellent sources for this type of repair that most people aren't aware of: Expert (small level of this type) torch skills are available at a good radiator repair shop and good air conditioner repairmen! And they are usually available nearby and cheap.
grayEZrider is offline  
Old 03-15-19, 07:13 PM
  #41  
madpogue 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Madison, WI USA
Posts: 2,862
Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 650 Post(s)
Liked 49 Times in 42 Posts
Radiator repair is fast becoming a lost craft. Actually, not that "fast". The trend toward aluminum core radiators with plastic tanks, essentially "throwaway" parts when they fail, started about 30 years ago. Everywhere I've seen, mom & pop radiator shops have been closing ever since.
madpogue is online now  
Old 03-15-19, 08:15 PM
  #42  
bnewberry
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 182
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 59 Post(s)
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by madpogue View Post
Wow, dang nice repair. Did that end up pulling the dropouts back in to 126?
Just a tiny bit less than 127. I will brace the bridge and cold set the frame.
bnewberry is offline  
Old 03-15-19, 08:46 PM
  #43  
cudak888 
www.theheadbadge.com
 
cudak888's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Southern Florida
Posts: 23,503

Bikes: http://www.theheadbadge.com

Mentioned: 27 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 314 Post(s)
Liked 82 Times in 69 Posts
Just for the record, this is not an uncommon thing with '80s Treks. Most of them have barely enough solder in the bridge. See this thread from 2009:
How many Treks... (Early Trek frame quality rant)

Many disagreed with my assessment then, claiming that the cited frames were stressed in one way or another. I respect that argument, but I also maintain that the Waterloo rear triangles consistently have an undeniable lack of silver solder penetration which is inexcusable, regardless of the failure mode.

The frames I brought up were poor examples, but the visual evidence of the failures corroborates my point: Trek bridges (on earlier Waterloo frames) will break from the seatstays with much less lateral force than comparable frames, due to this lack of solder.

-Kurt
__________________

Last edited by cudak888; 03-15-19 at 08:55 PM.
cudak888 is offline  
Old 03-15-19, 08:59 PM
  #44  
Reynolds 531
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Reno nevada
Posts: 246

Bikes: 4 Old school BMX, 6 Klunkers, 5 29er race bikes, 4 restored Sting Rays, Now 3 vintage steel bike being built up

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 92 Post(s)
Liked 3 Times in 3 Posts
Compliments from a Certified Welder on a pretty good brazing job
Reynolds 531 is offline  
Old 03-15-19, 09:57 PM
  #45  
Doug Fattic 
framebuilder
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Niles, Michigan
Posts: 314
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 51 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
This is what I would have done if you had driven west on US12 to my frame shop in Niles Mi. As a professional I have to take a professional approach to any repair or my reputation and therefore my income takes a hit when it isnít completely right. I would start by aligning the front triangle on my cast iron table. 1st the bottom bracket shell needs to be tapped and faced. Trek frames had a pretty casual relationship with accurate alignment. Then the dropouts have to be checked and corrected to make sure that they are not only 130.5 spacing but also equidistant from the centerline of the frame. I have much better tools for checking that then the silly string method that will likely only get it close. Once spread the dropouts need to be made parallel again with H tools and the hanger bent to be in the same plane as a true wheel.

While it is possible to reuse the present brake bridge I would definitely replace it for several reasons. 1st the other side is probably not all that well attached either. 2nd it is hard to clean the inside enough to get a good internal fillet Ė especially if using silver (I would have used brass if doing it the way you did). 3rd it puts less stress on a frame to lengthen the bridge to the new width between the seat stays. And 4th I would place the bridge at the position that gives me the clearance I want with the brakes I want to use (and I would chose a 47/57 brake and not the shorter 39/49 on this kind of frame for possible wider tires and fender clearance). Of course a brake bridge needs to be mitered. If I am going to use silver brazing material I would machine miter it, if hand mitering, I would use brass.

While it is possible to use 56% silver for brazing the brake bridge I prefer using stronger 48%. Of course after brazing the alignment has to be checked and corrected again. It can and will move when heat is applied.

After brazing I would patch the area with primer and then look through the hundreds of old Imron paint cans to find the closest color and blend it in. Since it isnít a show bike the over spray would not be that noticeable. Lots of sanding would still be involved.

Since you must not know who I am or you probably would have called for an estimate, Iíll introduce myself. I was one of those original Americans to trek to Europe in the 70ís to learn from a master over there (like my colleague and fellow Michigander Matt Assenmacher did a couple of years before me). I got my teaching education degrees at Andrews University in Berrien Springs, MI and taught high school for a few years before going into frame building and painting full time. Iíve taught frame building classes regularly since 1976 to hundreds of students. I donít go out of my way to market myself but I hang out a lot on framebuilding sites. Those that really want to learn how to build frames that do the most research on schools find me.
Doug Fattic is offline  
Old 03-15-19, 10:08 PM
  #46  
The Golden Boy 
Extraordinary Magnitude
 
The Golden Boy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Waukesha WI
Posts: 11,361

Bikes: 1977 Trek TX700; 1978/79 Trek 736; 1984 Specialized Stumpjumper Sport; 1984 Schwinn Voyageur SP; 1985 Trek 620; 1985 Trek 720; 1986 Trek 400 Elance; 1987 Schwinn High Sierra; 1990 Miyata 1000LT

Mentioned: 71 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1712 Post(s)
Liked 45 Times in 35 Posts
Originally Posted by Doug Fattic View Post
Since you must not know who I am or you probably would have called for an estimate
Sir,

You greatly underestimate your renown.

If this were me, I wouldn't have called as my assumption is a repair with your name on it would be beyond what I could afford.
__________________
*Recipient of the 2006 Time Magazine "Person Of The Year" Award*

Commence to jiggliní huh?!?!

"But hey, always love to hear from opinionated amateurs." -says some guy to Mr. Marshall.
The Golden Boy is offline  
Old 03-15-19, 10:13 PM
  #47  
The Golden Boy 
Extraordinary Magnitude
 
The Golden Boy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Waukesha WI
Posts: 11,361

Bikes: 1977 Trek TX700; 1978/79 Trek 736; 1984 Specialized Stumpjumper Sport; 1984 Schwinn Voyageur SP; 1985 Trek 620; 1985 Trek 720; 1986 Trek 400 Elance; 1987 Schwinn High Sierra; 1990 Miyata 1000LT

Mentioned: 71 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1712 Post(s)
Liked 45 Times in 35 Posts
Originally Posted by bnewberry View Post
I bought a 1985 Trek 620 frame (longer chainstays and canti brakes) last year.



As a total aside- I don't think that's a 1985 Trek 620.

It looks like you did a wonderful job with the repair.
__________________
*Recipient of the 2006 Time Magazine "Person Of The Year" Award*

Commence to jiggliní huh?!?!

"But hey, always love to hear from opinionated amateurs." -says some guy to Mr. Marshall.
The Golden Boy is offline  
Old 03-15-19, 10:48 PM
  #48  
Doug Fattic 
framebuilder
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Niles, Michigan
Posts: 314
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 51 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
Originally Posted by The Golden Boy View Post
You greatly underestimate your renown. If this were me, I wouldn't have called as my assumption is a repair with your name on it would be beyond what I could afford.
I think the OP did a fine job too and it is unlikely to break again but if it does he knows how to redo it again. This is the advantage of doing it himself. My lengthy explanation wasn’t directed to him but rather to those that might wonder why a professional charges so much. There can be a lot of steps involved one might not realize if done in a way to make sure it won’t break again and looks good too. I would estimate an alignment and new bridge would cost about $150. The painting would depend on several factors based on how good he wished it to look but a blend it in not trying to make it show quality would be another $100 or so.

Recognition can be passing. 30 years ago I could go into a good upper end bike shop anywhere in the US and probably be recognized. Now I can go on a local ride in South Bend IN and it is highly possible whoever I happen to ride with wouldn’t know who I am or that I built frames. I often have to introduce myself to those that haven't ridden for a long time.
Doug Fattic is offline  
Old 03-16-19, 04:50 AM
  #49  
Road Fan
Senior Member
 
Road Fan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 14,205

Bikes: 1980 Masi, 1984 Mondonico, 1984 Trek 610, 1980 Woodrup Giro, 2005 Mondonico Futura Leggera ELOS, 1967 PX10E, 1971 Peugeot UO-8

Mentioned: 32 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 805 Post(s)
Liked 10 Times in 9 Posts
Originally Posted by bnewberry View Post


Yes, I did it myself with some Saftey/Silv 56% and a Mapp plus oxygen torch.



I sure hope so!
Those are very happy pics!
Road Fan is offline  
Old 03-16-19, 05:00 AM
  #50  
miamijim
Senior Member
 
miamijim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Tampa, Florida
Posts: 13,923
Mentioned: 37 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 323 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 5 Times in 5 Posts
Originally Posted by Barrettscv View Post
Repairs will be costly. I had Waterford quote me a cold setting from 126 to 130. Waterford usually removes and reinstalls the bridge when spreading the rear triangle. I don't remember the exact price, but it was more than $600
First thing I thought of is the 'Waterford way'. When I cold set its with a Park FFS-2. I set the fulcrum short as to take pressure off the bridge.
miamijim is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.