126 to 130 rear wheel spacing casualty Trek 620
#26
Senior Member
Thread Starter
What silver braze material would would be best?
#27
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Repair
I made some time today to do the repair. Here are some attempts at photos of the braze after a quick clean up with 220 then up to 600 grit sand paper. After these photos I hit the bare metal with self etching primer. It will stay like this until warmer weather.
#28
Senior Member
If your in south west Michigan you could look up Doug Fattic Cycles in Niles. He’s a local frame builder there that does fantastic work.
https://www.yellowpages.com/niles-mi/doug-fattic-cycles
#29
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Originally Posted by bnewberry
I made some time today to do the repair.
#30
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Great job, @bnewberry! That joint is likely better than it was originally.
#33
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Thread Starter
This was my first braze, but I am familiar with soldering and the technique is similar, clean the area, flux, heat until the braze material melts on contact with the metal and then be sure to heat where you want the braze to flow. Also use gravity to help.
I gave it a good pull and it feels solid. We will see what happens when I set the rear and ride it!
Was it worth it? Yes! Was it cost effective? No! Total cost was about $100.00. The frame was only $125.00. But it was a good learning experience.
#34
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How inspiring!
#35
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Yes, I used Mapp with Oxygen. I probably could have used Mapp only but the oxygen added gave me confidence that I could get enough heat fast enough.
This was my first braze, but I am familiar with soldering and the technique is similar, clean the area, flux, heat until the braze material melts on contact with the metal and then be sure to heat where you want the braze to flow. Also use gravity to help.
I gave it a good pull and it feels solid. We will see what happens when I set the rear and ride it!
Was it worth it? Yes! Was it cost effective? No! Total cost was about $100.00. The frame was only $125.00. But it was a good learning experience.
#36
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Pretty impressive repair. I’ve spread my 85 Trek 660 to 130mm without issue, but if I ever have an issue... I now know how to repair it. Thanks!
#38
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Wow, dang nice repair. Did that end up pulling the dropouts back in to 126?
#39
Senior Member
"Did that end up pulling the dropouts back in to 126? "
Good question. Inquiring minds want to know.
I have taken junk frames and removed brake bridges, chain stay stiffeners and even drop outs and reused them for repairs. If the drop out spacing is not at 130, this may be your next move.
Good question. Inquiring minds want to know.
I have taken junk frames and removed brake bridges, chain stay stiffeners and even drop outs and reused them for repairs. If the drop out spacing is not at 130, this may be your next move.
#40
Full Member
Good work!
Wish I'd caught this thread earlier, but you did great. There are two excellent sources for this type of repair that most people aren't aware of: Expert (small level of this type) torch skills are available at a good radiator repair shop and good air conditioner repairmen! And they are usually available nearby and cheap.
#41
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Radiator repair is fast becoming a lost craft. Actually, not that "fast". The trend toward aluminum core radiators with plastic tanks, essentially "throwaway" parts when they fail, started about 30 years ago. Everywhere I've seen, mom & pop radiator shops have been closing ever since.
#42
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#43
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Just for the record, this is not an uncommon thing with '80s Treks. Most of them have barely enough solder in the bridge. See this thread from 2009:
How many Treks... (Early Trek frame quality rant)
Many disagreed with my assessment then, claiming that the cited frames were stressed in one way or another. I respect that argument, but I also maintain that the Waterloo rear triangles consistently have an undeniable lack of silver solder penetration which is inexcusable, regardless of the failure mode.
The frames I brought up were poor examples, but the visual evidence of the failures corroborates my point: Trek bridges (on earlier Waterloo frames) will break from the seatstays with much less lateral force than comparable frames, due to this lack of solder.
-Kurt
How many Treks... (Early Trek frame quality rant)
Many disagreed with my assessment then, claiming that the cited frames were stressed in one way or another. I respect that argument, but I also maintain that the Waterloo rear triangles consistently have an undeniable lack of silver solder penetration which is inexcusable, regardless of the failure mode.
The frames I brought up were poor examples, but the visual evidence of the failures corroborates my point: Trek bridges (on earlier Waterloo frames) will break from the seatstays with much less lateral force than comparable frames, due to this lack of solder.
-Kurt
Last edited by cudak888; 03-15-19 at 08:55 PM.
#45
framebuilder
This is what I would have done if you had driven west on US12 to my frame shop in Niles Mi. As a professional I have to take a professional approach to any repair or my reputation and therefore my income takes a hit when it isn’t completely right. I would start by aligning the front triangle on my cast iron table. 1st the bottom bracket shell needs to be tapped and faced. Trek frames had a pretty casual relationship with accurate alignment. Then the dropouts have to be checked and corrected to make sure that they are not only 130.5 spacing but also equidistant from the centerline of the frame. I have much better tools for checking that then the silly string method that will likely only get it close. Once spread the dropouts need to be made parallel again with H tools and the hanger bent to be in the same plane as a true wheel.
While it is possible to reuse the present brake bridge I would definitely replace it for several reasons. 1st the other side is probably not all that well attached either. 2nd it is hard to clean the inside enough to get a good internal fillet – especially if using silver (I would have used brass if doing it the way you did). 3rd it puts less stress on a frame to lengthen the bridge to the new width between the seat stays. And 4th I would place the bridge at the position that gives me the clearance I want with the brakes I want to use (and I would chose a 47/57 brake and not the shorter 39/49 on this kind of frame for possible wider tires and fender clearance). Of course a brake bridge needs to be mitered. If I am going to use silver brazing material I would machine miter it, if hand mitering, I would use brass.
While it is possible to use 56% silver for brazing the brake bridge I prefer using stronger 48%. Of course after brazing the alignment has to be checked and corrected again. It can and will move when heat is applied.
After brazing I would patch the area with primer and then look through the hundreds of old Imron paint cans to find the closest color and blend it in. Since it isn’t a show bike the over spray would not be that noticeable. Lots of sanding would still be involved.
Since you must not know who I am or you probably would have called for an estimate, I’ll introduce myself. I was one of those original Americans to trek to Europe in the 70’s to learn from a master over there (like my colleague and fellow Michigander Matt Assenmacher did a couple of years before me). I got my teaching education degrees at Andrews University in Berrien Springs, MI and taught high school for a few years before going into frame building and painting full time. I’ve taught frame building classes regularly since 1976 to hundreds of students. I don’t go out of my way to market myself but I hang out a lot on framebuilding sites. Those that really want to learn how to build frames that do the most research on schools find me.
While it is possible to reuse the present brake bridge I would definitely replace it for several reasons. 1st the other side is probably not all that well attached either. 2nd it is hard to clean the inside enough to get a good internal fillet – especially if using silver (I would have used brass if doing it the way you did). 3rd it puts less stress on a frame to lengthen the bridge to the new width between the seat stays. And 4th I would place the bridge at the position that gives me the clearance I want with the brakes I want to use (and I would chose a 47/57 brake and not the shorter 39/49 on this kind of frame for possible wider tires and fender clearance). Of course a brake bridge needs to be mitered. If I am going to use silver brazing material I would machine miter it, if hand mitering, I would use brass.
While it is possible to use 56% silver for brazing the brake bridge I prefer using stronger 48%. Of course after brazing the alignment has to be checked and corrected again. It can and will move when heat is applied.
After brazing I would patch the area with primer and then look through the hundreds of old Imron paint cans to find the closest color and blend it in. Since it isn’t a show bike the over spray would not be that noticeable. Lots of sanding would still be involved.
Since you must not know who I am or you probably would have called for an estimate, I’ll introduce myself. I was one of those original Americans to trek to Europe in the 70’s to learn from a master over there (like my colleague and fellow Michigander Matt Assenmacher did a couple of years before me). I got my teaching education degrees at Andrews University in Berrien Springs, MI and taught high school for a few years before going into frame building and painting full time. I’ve taught frame building classes regularly since 1976 to hundreds of students. I don’t go out of my way to market myself but I hang out a lot on framebuilding sites. Those that really want to learn how to build frames that do the most research on schools find me.
#46
Extraordinary Magnitude
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You greatly underestimate your renown.
If this were me, I wouldn't have called as my assumption is a repair with your name on it would be beyond what I could afford.
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Commence to jigglin’ huh?!?!
"But hey, always love to hear from opinionated amateurs." -says some guy to Mr. Marshall.
Commence to jigglin’ huh?!?!
"But hey, always love to hear from opinionated amateurs." -says some guy to Mr. Marshall.
#47
Extraordinary Magnitude
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It looks like you did a wonderful job with the repair.
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*Recipient of the 2006 Time Magazine "Person Of The Year" Award*
Commence to jigglin’ huh?!?!
"But hey, always love to hear from opinionated amateurs." -says some guy to Mr. Marshall.
Commence to jigglin’ huh?!?!
"But hey, always love to hear from opinionated amateurs." -says some guy to Mr. Marshall.
#48
framebuilder
Recognition can be passing. 30 years ago I could go into a good upper end bike shop anywhere in the US and probably be recognized. Now I can go on a local ride in South Bend IN and it is highly possible whoever I happen to ride with wouldn’t know who I am or that I built frames. I often have to introduce myself to those that haven't ridden for a long time.
#49
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First thing I thought of is the 'Waterford way'. When I cold set its with a Park FFS-2. I set the fulcrum short as to take pressure off the bridge.