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126 to 130 rear wheel spacing casualty Trek 620

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126 to 130 rear wheel spacing casualty Trek 620

Old 02-03-19, 04:10 PM
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bnewberry
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126 to 130 rear wheel spacing casualty Trek 620 REPAIR UPDATE

Repair update in a reply below.

I bought a 1985 Trek 620 frame (longer chainstays and canti brakes) last year. In the process of building it this winter I installed a 130 MM wheel in the back and left it for a month out in my shop. Now that the polar vortex has released its hold on us fowr now I went back out to the shop with the intention of working on this project and found that the brake bridge has separated from the seat stay on the drive side of the bike.

I was building this up with the intention of riding it this year, I put about 1000 miles on a bike in a season, 50 to 150
miles per week with a couple of centuries planned.

The paint on the frame isn't the best and it also needs the canti mounts replaced on the front fork. Is the cost worth it or should I retire this frame and use another?

Suggestions?

Last edited by bnewberry; 03-15-19 at 02:43 PM. Reason: Repair update
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Old 02-03-19, 04:28 PM
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Originally Posted by bnewberry View Post
I bought a 1985 Trek 620 frame (longer chainstays and canti brakes) last year. In the process of building it this winter I installed a 130 MM wheel in the back and left it for a month out in my shop. Now that the polar vortex has released its hold on us for now I went back out to the shop with the intention of working on this project and found that the brake bridge has separated from the seat stay on the drive side of the bike.

I was building this up with the intention of riding it this year, I put about 1000 miles on a bike in a season, 50 to 150
miles per week with a couple of centuries planned.

The paint on the frame isn't the best and it also needs the canti mounts replaced on the front fork. Is the cost worth it or should I retire this frame and use another?

Suggestions?


Here is a picture.
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Old 02-03-19, 04:29 PM
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Repairs will be costly. I had Waterford quote me a cold setting from 126 to 130. Waterford usually removes and reinstalls the bridge when spreading the rear triangle. I don't remember the exact price, but it was more than $600.

I dont know if this frame would fit, plus you will neet to source a fork (A Surly long haul trucker fork should work): https://www.randombikeparts.com/products/fuji-58cm-touring-road-bike-frame-700c-steel-cantilever-bsa-new?gclid=CjwKCAiAv9riBRANEiwA9Dqv1eqPh17KuNYq8jt0YY-LDslTayBCIKsnznQmQCXkRHmAub2f5F3RoRoC__4QAvD_BwE

Last edited by Barrettscv; 02-03-19 at 05:38 PM.
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Old 02-03-19, 05:14 PM
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What a sad thread. Paging a torch wizard like @gugie
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Old 02-03-19, 05:43 PM
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I have never encountered this sort of problem in all my years of spreading rear triangles, typically from 120 to 123, 126, or even 128mm.
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Old 02-03-19, 05:54 PM
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Yeah, I must have spread hundreds of frames from 120 to 126 in the 80s. Never broke a brake bridge.

I see where Waterford is coming from, but that's kind of absurd. The seem to want to replace the bridge, realign the stays, and repaint. If you're going to that much trouble, may as well buy a new frame.
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Old 02-03-19, 05:59 PM
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I have heard of this happening, and accept it as a possible risk. This is the first time it has happened to me. I had high hopes for this frame.

No doubt Waterford does great work, and if this were a collector's item it might be worth it. But this frame is a rider, I can't justify spending more that the cost of a similar old frame.
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Old 02-03-19, 06:12 PM
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The big trouble is paint. Someone with a little experience brazing should be able to repair it. Brake bridges can be done in silver, with MAP(pseudo-MAP) gas or maybe even propane since it's a relatively small area. No jigs needed since it's held in place by the other side. Just wicking the filler into the gap should be enough, no fancy filleting skills needed. You would then need to cold set the frame after the repair to prevent it from happening again. Even so, the bill can pile up to more than the worth of a vintage frame.
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Old 02-03-19, 06:22 PM
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The OP mentioned CANTI POSTS, so really the "brake bridge" is superfluous except as a fender mounting point, and for which it is still good.

I've spread dozens of rear triangles over the years, and have had not one failure.
I popped a dropout loose once while twisting a stem quill out, but that sort of failure (like this Trek, imo) just points to a brazing defect that was better revealed while it was being worked on rather than ridden.
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Old 02-03-19, 06:41 PM
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Odd, that. From the picture, I would guess that there was ZERO braze penetration on that side. That bit is pretty easily fixed as others have . Since the frame is metallic silver, it might be pretty easy just to touch up the heat affected zone after repair.

Waterford's quote almost assuredly included repaint, that's way too high just for the repair.

@Kuromori is dead on, I'd find someone local to do the work if you can. Where is local to you? Somebody local to me could get the job done for a six-pack. I agree with @Barrettscv about replacing the fork, just make sure the rake and axle to crown measurement is pretty close.

So, $125 all in, you'd have a nice rider.
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Old 02-03-19, 06:46 PM
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There is a reason why I always clamped the seat stays at the brake bridge when spreading a frame from 120 to 126mm.
Yes, the seat stays do need to bend slightly when spreading a frame.
The Waterford way mentioned where they replace the bridge is interesting but it just transfers the stress up to the top.
Hmmm.

If the frame was out in an unheated space during the Polar Vortex freeze.... That could be a contributing factor.
Amtrak stopped running in/out of Chicago for a reason during the worst of it.
Very cold metal gets very brittle.
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Old 02-03-19, 07:21 PM
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I am in southern Michigan. It is a rural area without much in the way of bike repair. I might be able to find a good hand with a torch.

I agree that it looks like there was little or no penetration in the braze.
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Old 02-03-19, 07:30 PM
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Judging from the picture, there really is little filler in the joint that I can see, and should be considered a poorly done joint.
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Old 02-03-19, 07:35 PM
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Just look for a welding shop
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Old 02-03-19, 07:53 PM
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Originally Posted by bnewberry View Post
I am in southern Michigan. It is a rural area without much in the way of bike repair. I might be able to find a good hand with a torch.

I agree that it looks like there was little or no penetration in the braze.
I live in Ann Arbor. In southern Michigan we have a well-recognized frame builder, Doug Fattic in Niles, and Matt Assenmacher near Flint. Then there is Franklin Frames near Columbus. Matt Assenmacher is also very good, but ... should contact him, he might have his shop back in service by now. In Chicago (Kenilworth, really), I know of Ron Boi, who did a full alignment on my Trek 610 about 15 years ago, and who's building and repair skills go back into the '60s if not earlier.

For cold-setting the rear if all is well, it should cost not more than $100 IMO. If you add on some brazing that's more $$ for the metal work but not really very much. But as others have said the paint is the kicker. I don't know what you paid originally (I would see the long stays as a desirable feature), but all this work does not make this a frame worth $900 based on resale. If you love the frame, that's another story, but you can probably love many frames. And you can certainly find other 620s, although perhaps the long stays would be unique.
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Old 02-03-19, 08:21 PM
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Geez, just sweat some braze in there, realign, and spray some rattlecan over it. Done. If it's going to be your bike, maybe splurge on new powdercoat.

As mentioned, that's a simple enough repair you could do it DIY style with MAPP gas and silver braze.
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Old 02-03-19, 10:54 PM
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Originally Posted by repechage View Post
There is a reason why I always clamped the seat stays at the brake bridge when spreading a frame from 120 to 126mm.
Yes, the seat stays do need to bend slightly when spreading a frame.
The Waterford way mentioned where they replace the bridge is interesting but it just transfers the stress up to the top.
Hmmm.

If the frame was out in an unheated space during the Polar Vortex freeze.... That could be a contributing factor.
Amtrak stopped running in/out of Chicago for a reason during the worst of it.
Very cold metal gets very brittle.
I haven't heard of clamping the seatstays. Thank you. I've been musing spreading my Peter Mooney to 130. It's already done 120-126. Clamping the stays at the bridge would bring peace of mind.

Ben
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Old 02-03-19, 11:04 PM
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Must have been a poor braze joint to start with as you did not really had to go that much with the cold set.
Maybe consider yourself lucky, it broke off in your shop, and not on the road where the brake caliper might have fallen into you rear wheel spokes, during a hard braking event.....
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Old 02-04-19, 01:50 AM
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I'll go with the consensus: find a local who knows how to braze (but don't get it welded), and touch up the damaged paint area with whatever you can find.
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Old 02-04-19, 07:37 AM
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Good point about this being best discovered in the shop than on the road, especially if breaking hard to stop at the bottom of a big descent! And yes, this does have canti mounts but I had planned on setting this up with regular brakes to see how I like the geometry of the frame before going with a new to me type of brake.

Thanks for all of the information, advice, and especially to Road Fan for the Michigan frame repair resources!

I will update when I figure out what I am going to do.
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Old 02-04-19, 08:52 AM
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Originally Posted by repechage View Post
There is a reason why I always clamped the seat stays at the brake bridge when spreading a frame from 120 to 126mm.
Yes, the seat stays do need to bend slightly when spreading a frame.
The Waterford way mentioned where they replace the bridge is interesting but it just transfers the stress up to the top.
Hmmm.

If the frame was out in an unheated space during the Polar Vortex freeze.... That could be a contributing factor.
Amtrak stopped running in/out of Chicago for a reason during the worst of it.
Very cold metal gets very brittle.
I had a recently cold-set frame out in my detached garage during this past week's extreme cold weather. This thread is scaring me. I will definitely give it a careful inspection.

I'm also concerned that my Wahoo sensor batteries may be dead, but maybe not.

It's an interesting point to consider in a place like Chicago... If you live in a place that can see extreme temperatures, do you bring your vintage bikes in from a garage to a more mild indoor climate? I never have, unless I was working on them in my basement.
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Old 02-04-19, 01:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Salamandrine View Post
Geez, just sweat some braze in there, realign, and spray some rattlecan over it. Done. If it's going to be your bike, maybe splurge on new powdercoat.

As mentioned, that's a simple enough repair you could do it DIY style with MAPP gas and silver braze.
This 👆

Functional frame, near enough paint. That's the route I'd take.
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Old 02-04-19, 03:49 PM
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The Waterford quote really isn't out of line. Its a more recognized name with business overhead that a customer expects to pay for.

They're not going to gamble with some customer and do a 'band-aid' repair. Its all in or move along.

They smartly don't risk their name after someone already messed with the frame and Treks prior factory issue has come to light.

I don't know what the quote involves but after repairs, alignment and who knows whatever else discovery, then add a 'proper' paint -its very reasonable. Is it to be a near exact metallic color DuPont Imron with clear coat blended to the rest of the frame from the 1980s or full repaint?

Now, there are other options or lower cost operations but as mentioned by others, what's it worth to the owner, or whatever frame others may have?
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Old 02-04-19, 06:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Salamandrine View Post
Geez, just sweat some braze in there, realign, and spray some rattlecan over it. Done. If it's going to be your bike, maybe splurge on new powdercoat.

As mentioned, that's a simple enough repair you could do it DIY style with MAPP gas and silver braze.

How about the long version with all the prep details, for the newbies who just got a Propane/Mapp turbotorch, and are looking for trouble..

Last edited by bark_eater; 02-04-19 at 07:14 PM.
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Old 02-04-19, 10:25 PM
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Originally Posted by John E View Post
I have never encountered this sort of problem in all my years of spreading rear triangles, typically from 120 to 123, 126, or even 128mm.
I have spread from 126 to 132 and did not have that sort of thing happen ... kinda scary but things happen
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