Carlton Franco-Suisse-My new to me beautiful rip-off!
02-12-19, 08:20 PM
#76
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When I had an issue with some internal cable routing holes on an old Miyata (the corners all had cracks radiusing out from them) , a local framebuilder indicated he could easily replace the top tube for a reasonable price. Since the bike wasn’t going to be a restoration, I just had him patch the holes and add cable stops. I assume he could just as easily replace chain stays. I think if the Carlton were mine, I’d go for the replacement - especially if I could get some monetary relief from the seller.
Repair with as little damage to frame as possible. I've used wet rags tied around two sides of a repair area to save as much of the original paint as possible. Primer, and get a can of matching paint made up at the local automotive store. Let it harden for a week or two in warm weather, then go back and "distress" the painted area to match as best you can.
BTW, your assumption that it's easy to replace a chain stay...let's just say it's perhaps a bit more difficult than you think.
I'd take this on for beer money!
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If someone tells you that you have enough bicycles and you don't need any more, stop talking to them. You don't need that kind of negativity in your life.
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02-12-19, 10:22 PM
#77
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The seller called me back! I placed a call to him earlier and expressed my disappointment without making any accusations. Here is what he said.
”Hi Paul. I got the frame from the late Steve Hed as a gift, he thought it was my size but I ride a 63cm. I looked at the usual spots on the frame and fork for any structural damage before selling, mostly it just hung on a hook for years. I hadn’t seen under the sticker because it was on there when it was given to me. Let’s keep the conversation going on this. I know that a swap meet is as is, but I pride myself on making people happy”.
We had a little friendly back and forth after this and I’m satisfied. He didn’t slam the door on compensation but I won’t be pursuing this any further. The fact that he called me back to deal with this honestly means much more to me than the money does. Now it’s time to fix this thing!
”Hi Paul. I got the frame from the late Steve Hed as a gift, he thought it was my size but I ride a 63cm. I looked at the usual spots on the frame and fork for any structural damage before selling, mostly it just hung on a hook for years. I hadn’t seen under the sticker because it was on there when it was given to me. Let’s keep the conversation going on this. I know that a swap meet is as is, but I pride myself on making people happy”.
We had a little friendly back and forth after this and I’m satisfied. He didn’t slam the door on compensation but I won’t be pursuing this any further. The fact that he called me back to deal with this honestly means much more to me than the money does. Now it’s time to fix this thing!
Last edited by Pcampeau; 02-12-19 at 10:25 PM.
02-12-19, 10:42 PM
#78
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Glad you heard from the seller. As far as repair, it will be very interesting to see what recommendations you get from the pros. My comments regarding replacing the stay didn’t take into consideration the loss of significant originality. Definitely keep us posted with the project.
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02-13-19, 12:14 AM
#79
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Splendid news!
02-13-19, 01:35 AM
#80
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02-13-19, 01:52 AM
#81
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Are you sure that isn't just bare steel? I can't tell from your picture whether that's some sort of filler, or just bare steel with weird lighting. 531 turns a similar light brownish color when exposed to air. If it's wax or glue or something, prodding it with something pointy will tell the tale immediately.
Rather obviously, it got rubbed with a chainring at some point due to incorrect BB length or a similar issue. Strange solution to cut a square hole as a fix, if that is indeed what happened. I guess they never heard the story about the Comet windows.
I vote for TIG welding in a small patch, carefully. While 531 is not ideal for this, I've heard it can be done. I'm sure there's a framebuilder out there who knows. That said, I'm diggin some of the clever ideas for a brazed in patch. Chainstays pretty much never break there, so there's IMO a bit of leeway.
Replacing a stay would be a PITA, mainly because the BB shell would have to be torched up. It definitely would require a full repaint. I love the charm of the bike's original paint. It would be a shame to lose it.
Rather obviously, it got rubbed with a chainring at some point due to incorrect BB length or a similar issue. Strange solution to cut a square hole as a fix, if that is indeed what happened. I guess they never heard the story about the Comet windows.
I vote for TIG welding in a small patch, carefully. While 531 is not ideal for this, I've heard it can be done. I'm sure there's a framebuilder out there who knows. That said, I'm diggin some of the clever ideas for a brazed in patch. Chainstays pretty much never break there, so there's IMO a bit of leeway.
Replacing a stay would be a PITA, mainly because the BB shell would have to be torched up. It definitely would require a full repaint. I love the charm of the bike's original paint. It would be a shame to lose it.
02-13-19, 12:05 PM
#83
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I dropped the bike off at a local place called Prarie Crow Bike Works. I met Alex, who will be performing this surgery and He has me feeling quite confident. Gugie, I really appreciate your willingness to step up and take this on and truthfully it would have been a lot more interesting to have this done on the forum, but I just don’t want to take the risks of shipping if it’s not absolutely necessary. Thanks again! Alex is going to use silver to braze and patch the hole from the inside.
02-13-19, 12:08 PM
#84
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If there is any chainring clearance problem consider using this one as a five speed. Or, given the age of the frame, a four speed or a Sturmey.
Top framebuilder in Minneapolis is still Chris Kvale. That may be my age showing, but am quite sure he would have no trouble with this repair. While I have no positive knowledge, it would surprise me if he did not know Steve Hed at least a bit. Keep it in the family.
Top framebuilder in Minneapolis is still Chris Kvale. That may be my age showing, but am quite sure he would have no trouble with this repair. While I have no positive knowledge, it would surprise me if he did not know Steve Hed at least a bit. Keep it in the family.
02-13-19, 03:28 PM
#86
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I'm no frame-builder, but I was surprised that silver would be used.
That's good for preserving the paint and metal, lower temperature and all, but is supposed to require a closer gap tolerance.
I can't speak of the difficulty in achieving a close gap tolerance here, I somehow assumed it would be more of a challenge.
But I must defer fully to those who wield the torches!
That's good for preserving the paint and metal, lower temperature and all, but is supposed to require a closer gap tolerance.
I can't speak of the difficulty in achieving a close gap tolerance here, I somehow assumed it would be more of a challenge.
But I must defer fully to those who wield the torches!
02-13-19, 03:38 PM
#87
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I'm no frame-builder, but I was surprised that silver would be used.
That's good for preserving the paint and metal, lower temperature and all, but is supposed to require a closer gap tolerance.
I can't speak of the difficulty in achieving a close gap tolerance here, I somehow assumed it would be more of a challenge.
But I must defer fully to those who wield the torches!
That's good for preserving the paint and metal, lower temperature and all, but is supposed to require a closer gap tolerance.
I can't speak of the difficulty in achieving a close gap tolerance here, I somehow assumed it would be more of a challenge.
But I must defer fully to those who wield the torches!
02-13-19, 04:35 PM
#88
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The good thing here would seem to be that the gap will be visible around the entire hole, so this builder can manipulate the metal until it fits with the needed clearance.
And, if the work needed to be repeated, there would much less heat input with silver that might otherwise (using brass) discourage a re-do. This might be a consideration with such an atypical repair, and of course is also helping the paint.
I agree with the OP that this frame is worth the effort.
And, if the work needed to be repeated, there would much less heat input with silver that might otherwise (using brass) discourage a re-do. This might be a consideration with such an atypical repair, and of course is also helping the paint.
I agree with the OP that this frame is worth the effort.
02-13-19, 05:23 PM
#89
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I dropped the bike off at a local place called Prarie Crow Bike Works. I met Alex, who will be performing this surgery and He has me feeling quite confident. Gugie, I really appreciate your willingness to step up and take this on and truthfully it would have been a lot more interesting to have this done on the forum, but I just don’t want to take the risks of shipping if it’s not absolutely necessary. Thanks again! Alex is going to use silver to braze and patch the hole from the inside.
02-13-19, 05:31 PM
#90
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Alex told me that he could get to it next week. I will definitely be posting when i have it back.
02-13-19, 05:39 PM
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This started off pretty grim, but I think your going to have a very good outcome now. Seems like this frame guy has it under control. Cool.
Maybe I missed it, but what made you pull that sticker off anyway?
Maybe I missed it, but what made you pull that sticker off anyway?
02-13-19, 06:04 PM
#92
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It finally occurred to me when I got home that the sticker was on the drive side where it would be hidden by a chainring. What an odd place to put a sticker!
02-19-19, 10:18 AM
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Fixable
That is definitely fixable. Don't fret. Those old steel frames can take the heat and a flush fix is doable. There are several ways to braze a perfectly good fix.
Much of the frame construction reminds me of some old Raleigh bikes especially the joining of the stays to the seat tube. The lugs are beautiful too. Are you going period with the components or using more modern stuff?
Much of the frame construction reminds me of some old Raleigh bikes especially the joining of the stays to the seat tube. The lugs are beautiful too. Are you going period with the components or using more modern stuff?
02-19-19, 11:52 AM
#94
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That is definitely fixable. Don't fret. Those old steel frames can take the heat and a flush fix is doable. There are several ways to braze a perfectly good fix.
Much of the frame construction reminds me of some old Raleigh bikes especially the joining of the stays to the seat tube. The lugs are beautiful too. Are you going period with the components or using more modern stuff?
Much of the frame construction reminds me of some old Raleigh bikes especially the joining of the stays to the seat tube. The lugs are beautiful too. Are you going period with the components or using more modern stuff?
Last edited by Pcampeau; 02-19-19 at 11:56 AM.
02-19-19, 12:39 PM
#95
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02-21-19, 02:35 AM
#96
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Here is a photo of a 1962 Franco Suisse I found on CL last summer. 23" as well (sadly, too small for me). I sure hope your saga has a satisfactory resolution.
www.dougkeeler.com
Last edited by OutnBack; 02-21-19 at 03:08 AM.
04-25-19, 07:44 PM
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I can finally get around to updating this post. The delay is actually all my fault as the frame has been ready for quite some time. Life has been hectic but in a good way. Here are a couple of pics of the repair.
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04-25-19, 07:55 PM
#99
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Looks good! From what I can tell. Thanks for saving this one!
04-25-19, 08:01 PM
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I was going to try and touch up with paint over the repair but now I won’t. I’ve grown strangely fond of the gash. The repair is real smooth. I can’t feel it at all.