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CR18 rim on C&V... OK?

Old 02-11-19, 07:41 AM
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tiger1964
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CR18 rim on C&V... OK?

The bike is healing faster than I am, apparently. I dropped off the Palo Alto's front wheel at the LBS on Tuesday for new rim/spokes. They offered a whole new wheel for half the cost, but with a painted rim and painted 3-piece hub it looked decidedly Wal-Mart to me, no thanks. I was that told to order in a box-section ferruled rim that looked appropriate would mean two weeks to get it back -- but I got a call three days later, it was ready and we picked it up on the way home from the Westminster show.

The rim is marked "Sunrims CR18", looks OK to me; at the time I didn't even ask any questions on what they'ed be using. I looks close enough, no idea if it's dramatically heavier or not, I didn't weigh the wheel before taking it in, I didn't even remove what was left of the tire. Is this a decent rim for a C&V ride?

On-line, I see at eBay I could order the Super Champion "Gentleman" stickers and I could make the rim look like the rear one... sorta.
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Old 02-11-19, 07:53 AM
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I think it's a fantastic value rim with good vintage styling. It's double-walled, eyeletted and comes in many sizes, drillings and finishes. It measures about 22 mm on the outside, so is good for reasonable width tires, at least for me.
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Old 02-11-19, 08:06 AM
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No problem fitting in with the CV crowd. Good rims with plenty of style. Sun has been around for awhile.
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Old 02-11-19, 09:00 AM
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They aren't the lightest, but very durable and high quality rims that don't scream "I'm not C&V" I have several bicycles that wear them.
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Old 02-11-19, 09:04 AM
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No rules, anyway.
Back in the day, any shop would have done the same thing, and with a Sun rim, perhaps.
Sun is no newcomer. I had an '85 with Sun M14A rims. Good ones.
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Old 02-11-19, 09:41 AM
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I don't think anyone can expect a 70 or 80 year old bike to have original rims, especially if the original wheels were a size that's obsolete now... can they? I mean, it's cool if a bike has its original rims, but if the bike has been ridden all this time, it's not likely. And if it did have original rims, you'd have to ride it pretty gingerly.... No, I'd go for modern rims.



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Old 02-11-19, 10:03 AM
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Originally Posted by rhm View Post
I don't think anyone can expect a 70 or 80 year old bike to have original rims, especially if the original wheels were a size that's obsolete now... can they? I mean, it's cool if a bike has its original rims, but if the bike has been ridden all this time, it's not likely. And if it did have original rims, you'd have to ride it pretty gingerly.... No, I'd go for modern rims.



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Araya's?
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Old 02-11-19, 10:53 AM
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Why not? They are just a good plain silver box section rim.

I had these built for my Hetchins but they now grace my Volpe
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Old 02-11-19, 12:02 PM
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I run a replacement modern sun cr18 on my fuso, laced to the original tri color hub after cracking the original araya designed for lighter weight riders. At 190lbs rider weight it was recommended as great value to reliability but definitely not the lightest. Have ridden it pretty hard a few years now with zero truing needed (yes my local shop builds a great wheel!), the sun cr18 has been around for years and is valued for reliability over weight.
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Old 02-11-19, 12:30 PM
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CR-18's may be the only thing keeping some vintage bikes on the road IMO. Obviously great for big guys like me.
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Old 02-11-19, 12:43 PM
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Originally Posted by tiger1964 View Post
The bike is healing faster than I am, apparently. I dropped off the Palo Alto's front wheel at the LBS on Tuesday for new rim/spokes. They offered a whole new wheel for half the cost, but with a painted rim and painted 3-piece hub it looked decidedly Wal-Mart to me, no thanks. I was that told to order in a box-section ferruled rim that looked appropriate would mean two weeks to get it back -- but I got a call three days later, it was ready and we picked it up on the way home from the Westminster show.

The rim is marked "Sunrims CR18", looks OK to me; at the time I didn't even ask any questions on what they'ed be using. I looks close enough, no idea if it's dramatically heavier or not, I didn't weigh the wheel before taking it in, I didn't even remove what was left of the tire. Is this a decent rim for a C&V ride?

On-line, I see at eBay I could order the Super Champion "Gentleman" stickers and I could make the rim look like the rear one... sorta.
Super Champion Gentleman stickers on a CR18 won't fool anyone here.

They're pretty good rims in their own right. I saved quite a few grams switching from the original steel front rim to a CR18 on my 3-speed, and got much better braking out of the deal.
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Old 02-11-19, 12:56 PM
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Originally Posted by DiegoFrogs View Post
I think it's a fantastic value rim with good vintage styling. It's double-walled, eyeletted and comes in many sizes, drillings and finishes. It measures about 22 mm on the outside, so is good for reasonable width tires, at least for me.
Sounds great. Late fall, I switched from 23mm tires to 28mm on this bike, but really close to rubbing at the chain stays. As I clearly needed one new tire anyway, and BikeTiresDirect has a sale on the Conti 4000S, I grabbed a pair in 25mm, hopefully a good match for the rim.

Originally Posted by dailycommute View Post
At 190lbs rider weight it was recommended as great value to reliability but definitely not the lightest.
Right about my weight, I had dropped below that but gained 6LB in the past 60 days of basically non-riding in the winter. That said, if I get to ideal weight, I won't be having the wheels replaced with lighter rims.

Originally Posted by ThermionicScott View Post
Super Champion Gentleman stickers on a CR18 won't fool anyone here.
Probably not, and I guess I can stop looking for appropriately-sized Campy decals to apply to my Shimano SPD pedals?

With sealed bearing BB and headset, SPD pedals (I guess no ball/cone bearings anywhere on the bike now), this new rim, and squishy bar tape, this bike is no longer as C&V as it once was anyway. Oh, and my wife bought me a new water bottle for X-mas so I'm obliged to use it; instead of the classic squat size it's a longer/larger Camelbak Podium... little by little I'm slipping over the edge.
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Old 02-12-19, 12:37 AM
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Cr18s are my goto rim for most builds. Reasonably priced, sturdy and fairly sporting. My bob wears em proudly.
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Old 02-12-19, 07:15 AM
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Originally Posted by tiger1964 View Post
Sounds great. Late fall, I switched from 23mm tires to 28mm on this bike, but really close to rubbing at the chain stays. As I clearly needed one new tire anyway, and BikeTiresDirect has a sale on the Conti 4000S, I grabbed a pair in 25mm, hopefully a good match for the rim.
In that case I might actually opt for the M13-II rim from Sun. On the only bike that I have running a 28 mm tire, it's on a rim around the same width, and it looks just right. Typically, now, though I run 32 mm or wider tires on wider rims like the CR18.
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Old 02-12-19, 07:35 AM
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I'm with @DiegoFrogs on this. I converted my Montello from sew-ups to CR18's
I COULDN'T MAKE MYSELF RIDE IT WITH THOSE BIG, FAT, WIDE RIMS!
OK, I'm an old fart who still rides 23 and rarely 25's - seems like everybody else is stuffing mountain bike wide tires on their bikes now.
Put the rims in the attic and redid it with some take-off Mavic CXP's.
Saving the CR18's for redoing my tourer some day.
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Old 02-12-19, 09:50 AM
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Originally Posted by DiegoFrogs View Post
Typically, now, though I run 32 mm or wider tires on wider rims like the CR18.
Originally Posted by Chuckk View Post
I COULDN'T MAKE MYSELF RIDE IT WITH THOSE BIG, FAT, WIDE RIMS!
Hmm. So I just got out my micrometer. The CR-18 is about 23mm wide. The Super Champion on the rear is a whisker over 20mm wide. Will I notice one the tires are on -- uh, NOW I will, thanks guys. Right now, not going to spend the $$ to change rims on the front, nor put a CR-18 on the rear to match.

Maybe my next crash will only take out the rear rim.
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Old 02-12-19, 10:04 AM
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...those Super Champion Gentleman rims were good for their day, but I have redone a number of my wheels over the last four or five years to Sun, either the CR-18's for those that absolutely require a 27" (630) sized rim, or the MR ii that has been recommended above for the 700c ones.

The box section in the modern Sun makes better use of the aluminum material it contains in terms of strength and stiffness, and the Super Champ rims vary in the prominence of the bead hook (depending on how old they are, I think...or maybe there were variations available. I don't know). It's just a much more trouble free experience with the Sun rims, and they don't cost much either. I can inflate a 27 x 1 1/8 Panaracer to the full sidewall pressure as marked and not worry about it blowing off the rim.

I gave all the old rims to the co-op, in the hope that someone here might be able to use them in the pursuit if C+V authenticity. But every one of those bikes with the new Sun rims is a better rider now. They're just lighter enough that they make for better acceleration in comparison.
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Old 02-12-19, 10:28 AM
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Originally Posted by tiger1964 View Post
Hmm. So I just got out my micrometer. The CR-18 is about 23mm wide. The Super Champion on the rear is a whisker over 20mm wide.
A Sun M13 is around 19 or 20 wide and likely a better match. The erd is the same or close enough to use the same spokes as the cr18. I hate having rims that don't match very closely. I feel your frustration. This is the exact kind of thing that led me to building my own wheels.

That said, in my experience Sun rims are far superior to other brands in the same price range. At 535 grams for a 32h 700c cr18 (actual measured weight) they are not that heavy considering the rims are triple boxed, eyeletted and 23mm wide. It's probably my first choice for 28+ tires. The m13 is 470 grams and what I use if my tires are 25 and under.
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Old 02-12-19, 02:02 PM
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I think the CR18 is more of a match for the slightly heavier duty Super Champion mod 58 rim, but basically, yeah, it's got the same sort of look as old Super Champion clincher rims. The Sun is however a box section rim, which is inherently stronger. Also, they are a little taller. Still, from 3 ft away, a very good match. A couple mm wider than a Gentleman, but close enough. I think your LBS did fine. Yes it is OK.

FWIW the M13II is an even better match to the old Rigida rims, once you peel off the stickers. Either way, got to go with polished if you want the 70s look. Also, for future reference, the H+Son TB14 is a little closer match for old Super Champ rims.

Old clincher rims really weren't that great. The Sun rims are better and stronger. We are lucky to have them. Even if you can find NOS rims, for a rider, you are better off with modern. I for one would never lace used rims onto an old bike if I actually planned to ride it. For a display bike, fine.

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Old 02-12-19, 02:34 PM
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Glad to hear a few positive comments on CR18s. I'm in the process of upgrading the wheels on my '64 Legnano, and was a little put off by the wide rim section. I'm currently running Gatorskin 28s now, so I figured, what the heck. The 28s looked a little "baloony" on the old narrow vintage no name rims I had. I measured 17mm outside rim on the original rim and 22mm on the CR18. The old rim almost fits inside the new one, width wise. I will probably go over to Pasela 28 skin walls, when done. I bought 305mm spokes, which proved to be just a tad long, so I used a Dremel with round cutoff tool to take them down to the nipple. Rear is still in process, but here's the front. They seem to be well made, and look strong. Since the spokes were too long, we did a 4 cross pattern. My other two vintage bikes are 3 cross, on large flange hubs, and MA40s, also on 28 Paselas. I will probably lose the big stickers eventually. I am a "recovering" Clydesdale, too, down to 200 from 240 lbs, so strong is good.




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Old 02-12-19, 04:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Slightspeed View Post
Glad to hear a few positive comments on CR18s. I'm in the process of upgrading the wheels on my '64 Legnano, and was a little put off by the wide rim section. I'm currently running Gatorskin 28s now, so I figured, what the heck. The 28s looked a little "baloony" on the old narrow vintage no name rims I had. I measured 17mm outside rim on the original rim and 22mm on the CR18. The old rim almost fits inside the new one, width wise. I will probably go over to Pasela 28 skin walls, when done. I bought 305mm spokes, which proved to be just a tad long, so I used a Dremel with round cutoff tool to take them down to the nipple. Rear is still in process, but here's the front. They seem to be well made, and look strong. Since the spokes were too long, we did a 4 cross pattern. My other two vintage bikes are 3 cross, on large flange hubs, and MA40s, also on 28 Paselas. I will probably lose the big stickers eventually. I am a "recovering" Clydesdale, too, down to 200 from 240 lbs, so strong is good.



looks good. i always go 4 cross. seem to ride a tad smoother. 4 cross, 35mm paselas and a long wheel base make touring pretty comfortable.
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Old 02-22-19, 01:07 PM
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Originally Posted by tiger1964 View Post
Sounds great. Late fall, I switched from 23mm tires to 28mm on this bike, but really close to rubbing at the chain stays. As I clearly needed one new tire anyway, and BikeTiresDirect has a sale on the Conti 4000S, I grabbed a pair in 25mm, hopefully a good match for the rim.
My hands are finally up to tire mounting, so I installed the 25's. They mounted fine, and look fine, on both the rear (OEM) and front (CR-18) rims. True, the two rims look a wee bit different.

Did not have the 28's on long enough to make a ride or friction judgement. At least now I don't have to deflate a tire to remove a wheel, and I have reasonable chain stay clearance.
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Old 02-22-19, 01:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Chuckk View Post
I'm with @DiegoFrogs on this. I converted my Montello from sew-ups to CR18's
I COULDN'T MAKE MYSELF RIDE IT WITH THOSE BIG, FAT, WIDE RIMS!
OK, I'm an old fart who still rides 23 and rarely 25's - seems like everybody else is stuffing mountain bike wide tires on their bikes now.
As far as I'm concerned, 23mm tires (and narrower) was an idiotic aberration of the 80s and 90s that we are just now starting to recover from as a culture. Anybody who thinks riding tires in the 30-40mm range on a road bike is a "modern" phenomenon forgets that "wide" tires like that were par for course on road bikes in the 50s, 60s, 70s, and before.
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Old 02-22-19, 04:04 PM
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Originally Posted by TenGrainBread View Post
As far as I'm concerned, 23mm tires (and narrower) was an idiotic aberration of the 80s and 90s that we are just now starting to recover from as a culture. Anybody who thinks riding tires in the 30-40mm range on a road bike is a "modern" phenomenon forgets that "wide" tires like that were par for course on road bikes in the 50s, 60s, 70s, and before.
We raced on 23s back in the 60s and even smaller sometimes. Small tire section tires weren't just an 80s or 90s deal. That said, I'm much happier on 25 Gatorskins on my modern bikes, and 28 Paselas on my vintage rides. Even my old Legnano race bike is on 28s now and loving it. I got the CR18s and new Pasela 28s on the Legnano. It rides great, but the tall brake tracks take come getting used to visually, but it sure stops nice with new smooth brake tracks!

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Old 02-22-19, 04:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Slightspeed View Post





We raced on 23s back in the 60s and even smaller sometimes. Small tire section tires weren't just an 80s or 90s deal. That said, I'm much happier on 25 Gatorskins on my modern bikes, and 28 Paselas on my vintage rides. Even my old Legnano race bike is on 28s now and loving it. I got the CR18s and new Pasela 28s on the Legnano. It rides great, but the tall brake tracks take come getting used to visually, but it sure stops nice with new smooth brake tracks!
That Legnago is fantastic. Wheels look great!
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