Dawes-man

Are there any problems with mixing cups and axles of different makes? Will a Campagnolo axle work with Stronglight cups, or a Stronglight axle with TA or Campagnolo or TDC cups etc?

nlerner

I have found swapping to be fairly problematic or mostly a trial-and-error procedure. That said, TA and Stronglight do swap for each without a problem in my experience.

Neal

Charles Wahl

What he said. Late Campagnolo has thick cups with rifling in the spindle hole, to provide a filth-rejecting seal of sorts. Therefore, the races are slightly more inboard (about 2.5 mm each side, or 5 mm total) than on the earlier BBs with "thin cups," where the spindle construction is more like other manufacturers (Sugino, for example) who made BBs with spindles that are almost exact copies of Campagnolo. I believe that Sugino also made BBs for Suntour, the Superbe anyway.

Sutherland's chapter on Bottom Brackets has a fairly complete listing of spindles, and includes a "cup factor" that allows comparison for interchangeability. The critical issues that have to be addressed are the distance from end of spindle to BB shell face on right side (called SER distance), the size of the end of the spindle (ISO, JIS, or manufacturer-specific standard), where the bearings track on race and spindle "cone" (if you put a different spindle into cups that have worn, expect track to be in a different place), the cup factor, and of course, manufacturing tolerance. There are enough variables that calculations generally end in dizziness; prior experience or trial-and-error are usually the only recourse.

Dawes-man

Thank you both for your input.

On my Hetchins I have a Campagnolo spindle with the older type Campagnolo adjusting cup on the left and a T.D.C. fixed cup on the right. For some reason, the Campagnolo fixed cup wouldn't thread into the BB so I stayed with the T.D.C. This was to enable me to use a cotterless Stronglight crankset rather than a cottered one the BB set the Hetchins frame came with allowed. The result is a perfectly smooth BB and I guess that must be the aim of any BB set up. However, lacking experience I have wondered if despite the smoothness I wasn't causing some damage to something. I am reassured.

What I have found is that the Campagnolo spindle bolts must be thicker-headed than Stronglight ones as the Stronglight crank arm dust caps won't screw in far enough to become flush with the arm - they stick out about a millimetre. An aesthetic rather than practical problem but one that I expect will be solved by fitting a Stronglight or TA spindle.

I am also motivated by the fact that I am presently converting my Thanet from cottered to cotterless and don't want to repeat any problems I might be causing with the Hetchins. I have a spare Campagnolo spindle but it's too long (it's for a triple) and will only give me a reasonable chainline if I turn it around and have the left end on the right side. That means, of course, that the left hand crank arm is way out to the left. I might use it like that while I look for the right length Stronglight/TA spindle. Trouble is, most for sale on ebay come without end-bolts and if they do have them they also come with both cups and lock ring and then only with French threads. The slings and arrows...

Thanks again, chaps! This forum has been an invaluable and essential source of info and advice from the moment I fell in love with vintage bicycles.

Charles Wahl

If you're planning on putting a Stronglight or TA crank on the Thanet, then I'd look for a BB spindle (at least) from one of those manufacturers -- they're ISO taper, and they used a spindle about 118 mm long for doubles for a long time. If you plan to use a Campagnolo crank, then you might get away with using a Sugino Mighty BB; measurements for the MW-68 spindle are just a hair different than the Campagnolo.

Dawes-man

I've just understood a fundamental problem with using a Stronglight or TA spindle on the Thanet. As I mentioned earlier, the only spare spindle I have is a Campagnolo 3x for a triple crankset. It measures 117mm long and installed in the right orientation with the longer end on the drive-side it takes the single TA ring (on a Stronglight 49A crank) too far out. Installed in the opposite orientation it provides a usable chainline but puts the left crank arm way out to the left.

What I've realised is that I need a 102mm long symmetrical spindle and Campagnolo seems to be the only one available although finding one would be a different matter, of course. The shortest TA spindle reference I've found is the #314 at 111.5 mm. I haven't been able to find much Stronglight spindle length info but the shortest reference I can find so far is 118mm.

If I'm determined to use a TA then I'll have to find a 314 and then accept having the left pedal out to the left.

Or resign myself to staying with cottered cranks.

Charles Wahl

Hold on a minute. Going from 117 to 102 is a big leap! 102 is like a track bike length (outside-mounted chainwheel having a chainline in the 42-43 range). There are a lot of spindles that are asymmetrical (right side 3 to 5 mm longer than the left), and also a lot that are symmetrical. Also, an ISO taper generally has a slightly smaller end than a Campy or JIS taper, so cranks will end up closer to the frame when installed on the former, and farther out on the latter.

Have you been testing these things with the crank bolts fully tightened? I wouldn't go crazy tightening and loosening a crank over and over on different spindles, but you need to know about where a given crank sits when tightened on one or two spindles, if you're going to use the trial-and-error approach.

You have not disclosed what type of crank you intend to use, and what the ideal chainline you want to achieve is; maybe someone can provide reliable advice based on that. The bike frame shouldn't matter all that much, other than English/French/68 vs. Italian/70.

CV-6 

Good luck finding a 314 spindle. I paid dearly for one to complete my Lejeune pista. It is being used with Campagnolo thin cups. FWIW, I rode one bike for years with a Stronglight crank and a Suntour Cyclone spindle. That spindle measures 113mm.

Dawes-man

You are most definitely right. I took the left side Stronglight 49A crank to a fixed-gear shop down the road to look at their selection of JIS spindles. They're all 107mm long. The amount of taper in the crank looked enough so I borrowed the spindle, took it home and tried it with the drive-side 49A crank with the TA ring I want to use bolted on.

The chainring bolts just touch the bb shell as it turns. I haven't been using the crank bolts, just finger-tightening the adjusting cone and pressing the crank hard onto the spindle as I rotate it, listening for contact. I reckon the optimum spindle length with be somewhere around 110mm - maybe a TA 314, at 111.5mm, WOULD do the job... it would if TA spindles allow the 49A to get a little closer to the bb than the Campagnolo due to a difference in taper.

I've been using a straightedge to check the optimum chainline but I've just measured it - 40mm from the centre of the seat tube. The chainring needs to be 4.5mm out from where the JIS spindle takes it, or 7mm in from where the end of the Campagnolo 3x takes it if installed in the correct orientation. Another Campagnolo spindle of 110mm would likely be perfect but I don't think they exist.

Something I haven't been able to find is info on how much, if any, deviation from the chainline optimum is acceptable.

Dawes-man

Not what I wanted to hear... but I suspected as much.

The seat lug cluster of your red Lejeune is sheer beauty.
https://www.wooljersey.com/gallery/v/...62215.JPG.html

kpug505

Hold on a sec...Hetchins and a Thanet?....Lets see some pics! Is the Thanet a Silverlight? My fav British bike ever! Pretty please?

Poguemahone

Just an FYI-- I've been using a Stronglight spindle and crank with Zeus (campy knockoffs, IIRC) cups on my PX fixie for years without a hint of problem.

Dawes-man

https://www.flickr.com/photos/2298367...7611268721862/

Dawes-man

Actually, I like this picture so much that I'll post it for all...

Dawes-man

That's very reassuring. I hope to run a left Campagnolo cup with a right T.D.C. cup, a TA spindle and Stronglight 49A cranks - I understand that TA and Stronglight cranks and spindles are interchangeable.

If your TA spindle works fine with Campagnolo cups, I know a Campagnolo spindle works with a T.D.C cup as that's what's on my Hetchins and the BB is certainly perfectly smooth. Therefore the TA spindle should also work with the T.D.C. cup.

Dawes-man

Shikoku happens to be one of my favourite places in Japan. I spent a week touring there on a motorcycle and camping a few years back. Saw lots of pilgrims along the way. Had sanuki udon twice a day, every day, it was so good.

Thanks for the Sheldon link.

Do you happen to know if the TA 314 is symmetrical?

RobbieTunes

Basically, I think Trial and Error is the a great technique, and it works for me a lot.
Sometimes, not knowing any better removes the obstacles.

SB_Greg

Resurrecting an old post here. Does anyone know if Campy Nuevo Record cups would work with a Stronglight spindle? I have a Stronglight 99 cankset I want to mount on a Belgian bike. I have the Stronglight spindle in hand.

Salamandrine 

Generally not. TA and Stronglight BB parts can usually be mixed and matched with each other, but not with Campy. Sugino BB of a certain era were campy clones, and the spindles could be swapped in, if you had the right one with the right dimensions. IIRC Ofmega/Avocet was close enough. Maybe Zeus was too. Can't remember.

As mentioned elsewhere, there were early thin cup campy record BB, and later thick cup version with spiral rifling to keep the dirt out. They used different spindles. so even campy spindles won't always work...

Do you have the campy spindle that goes with those cups? Have you tried that? ISO and JIS tapers did not exist back then. Mostly it was try and fit, and whatever measly info was in Sutherlands.

Also, old Frenchie cranks usually fit on modern JIS BB's just fine.

rhm

Question:

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​​​​​​​Answer:

SurferRosa

The miyata 912 I recently acquired has campy record cups and a non-campy spindle. I assumed it worked for nearly 40 years like that, so I just put it back together the same way.

63rickert

Right now the only bikes in house with matching cups and spindle are the 99+% original Raleigh Twenty and the Stronglight equipped largely original 1960 Carré. The other 5 are mix and match and for some don't even know who made the spindle. If the bearings run smooth and the chainline is good mix and match at will.

JohnDThompson 

To be clear, the "thick" Campagnolo cups were only used with the Nuovo and Super Record road bottom bracket. Gran Sport, Record road and pista, and Super Record Pista bottom brackets used the thin cups. But Super Record bottom brackets used smaller balls than Gran Sport, Record, Nuovo Record and so will only work Super Record cups and spindles. The others can interchange in principle, but trial and error will be needed to establish a proper chain line.