mrv 

This is great! I was searching for copper rivet s and did not find this site. I found the other rivets at Tandy leather or something, but I thought - or was afraid - that the smaller head size would not work. I figured Brooks used a very large head for the brass rivets to distribute the load. The steel rivets are smaller, and tend to be sharper. I'm getting some shorts snagged, so I may try just replacing offending culprits with brass before replacing them all.

Looks like $75ish for those hand presses. Maybe I'll just get the rivet forms you linked and beat on them with a hammer. Maybe not....
Good thread - thanks!

rhm

Yeah, I can't recommend getting a big tool like that for just one or two saddles, but your call.

There's also this type of rivet tool:



I see these on ebay for $15-50 and I just don't know if they're good enough. You mount the thing in a bench vise, put the right tool in it, and hit it with a hammer.

Search term "brake rivet tool" should find a bunch.

rhm

I assumed it was proofide. It's definitely a soft pasty kind of stuff, much softer than candle wax.

mrv 

sweet!

Big Block

From the information I read, the large heads on factory Brooks are for aesthetic reasons.

Back in the days, Brooks saddles were customised by aftermarket butchers/blockers. This required removing the rivets from the rear cantle plate, which was replaced or reshaped and the leather then riveted to the new or replaced cantle plate. The holes in the leather did not then line up. So bigger rivets were used to cover the old holes.
Big rivets were then a sign of extra upmarket work, and became a status item.
Regular Brooks saddles were regarded as basic.
So for marketing purposes, larger rivets were then used by Brooks to claim back that position. They, of course, charged extra for the hand peened rivets.

I make my own rivets and then put them on the new top cut with the rhm Swallow template. Thanks Rudi.

and

for more have a look at
Brooks saddles - blocking and butchering!
ITALIAN CYCLING JOURNAL: Ottusi Saddles

bluehills3149

Here's my B17 with the Ebay rivets I posted above. I found the rivets too long so cut off a couple mm using my cable cutters. But I had a hard time peening them. I do not have any rivet tools so used bits of steel mounted in my vice and punches but the rivets would want to bend over rather than deform in a straight column. I got the in but I'm not that happy with the results (but it looks OK I suppose). Second issue was the tension bolt broke. The original seems to use some odd thread (Whitworth perhaps?) so I could not find a substitute in my (small) collection of bolts. I ended up using a front hub bolt (hollow quick release style) and rammed a filed down hex head screw in the end. The hex head makes adjustment easier too. The shouldered screw I made from a front wheel cone and put it in a drill and filed down the bearing race to a hard shoulder. Not sure it is ideal as a coarse thread is stronger than fine but I used what I had on hand. I also found I could not fit an original length bolt as the leather was too tight and I ended up remaking the bolt in the pic to be shorter by about 10mm and even then it was a tight fit and the screw needs no tension. Perhaps the leather will stretch with use?

rhm

Ha! That tension bolt is pretty slick!

For what it's worth, bike shops can order the correct Brooks tension bolt for you. I used to order them from Niagara Cyclery. I haven't had to order any since they disappeared.

The time to replace the tension bolt was when you had all the rivets out of the cantle plate. It's really hard to get a tension bolt into the nose when it's all riveted together, but to judge from the video on YouTube that's how Brooks does it. The trick is to bend the steel, not stretch the leather. If you try to stretch the leather, especially on an older saddle, you are likely to tear it before it stretches.

As for the rivets... yeah. That's what I meant, when I said "installing with a hammer and punch can be challenging."

mrv 

I picked up some rivets, Brass Brake Lining Rivets / Clutch Facing Rivets [BR8-6B]

I've replaced two rivets, the ones on the far outside, as those the ones that were biting me a bit (the steel rivets). I used a rivet setting tool to roll the tubular part over. But the tool head is too big to completely seat the rivet inside the radius of the seat rail. So then I used a punch to try to tighten the whole deal up a bit, but I think the diameter was too small. So the rolled part started to fold over and tear.

The head edges (on the seat top) are a bit sharp. I am having a heck of a time getting the sharp edges to bend over. Probably copper would hammer over just fine, I think, being softer than brass.

Anybody got any suggestions? I am thinking - before I start pound on the rivet, I need clamp the leather to the rail. That way the rivet head can some what embed into the leather.

A couple of photos to follow.
Thanks.

tony colegrave

It may be of interest to some to note that, in very late 1950s or early 1960s (soon after the Company was acquired by Raleigh Industries), Brooks introduced tubular brass rivets (nickel plated) to some (at least) of their B.15 range of 'second tier' sports saddles (esp. Swallows, in my experience) in place of the regular tubular steel ones.
However, brass proved too brittle for the purpose and was soon abandoned.

rustystrings61 

Sometimes one cheats and just adds an auxiliary rivet and calls it done. I bought this B17 Champion Special during the great Brooks Panic of 1999, started riding it in 2003, and by 2014 it had torn where the leather was a bit skimpy on the right side of the nose. This meant the saddle was beginning to curve inward more on the left side and was pulling straight on the right. Sooner or later it would tear somewhere else.



So I did some research and decided there was sufficient metal under the leather to go back behind the damaged area, drill another hole and fit another rivet.




My first attempt didn't work so well, as I didn't prep the back of the rivet properly. The second time, I (a) used the correct size Brooks rivet purchased from Wallingford before they went away and (b) used a Dremel and a cutting blade to split the post of the rivet to make it easier to mushroom out on the back. This photo was taken shortly after the work was done, but after a couple of years, the rivets have been polished down to the right sheen by the movement of my leg on the saddle.




Inelegant? Perhaps, but it works and now the saddle feels balanced under me again.

mrv 

Interesting! The 100 brass rivet were only $6, and it's given me something to practice with. At the moment I have a bit more confidence to order the $2 per piece copper rivets from Brooks. I am a bit frustrated there seems to be no other source for similar copper rivets to the Brooks rivets. Even after extensive googling and a visit to the local TANDY leather shop. And a visit to a couple of local shoe repair places (cobbler).
https://www.brooksengland.com/en_us/...a-byb-277.html
- - - - -
PS: I did find I could flatten out the sharp round edges a bit by using a larger punch clamped in a vice and hitting the rivet harder. I was thinking of pre-bending the edges, but I found that difficult to do without introducing burrs to the edges of the rivet.

rhm

I was initially a bit concerned that brass might not be strong enough, but so far I haven't seen any brass rivets fail, except for some that I hadn't installed well. I have had to drill some brass rivets out, and that's hard work. I am tentatively satisfied that brass rivets are strong enough. Time will tell!

I look for rivets on eBay occasionally, and sometimes find older stock in useful sizes. Copper plated steel ones come up now and then. But I never see nice nickel plated rivets like what Brooks uses.

tony colegrave

I have had the occasional brass-rivetted Swallow sent to me for repair, and have been able to source appropriate replacement rivets to pattern. None has yet been returned for further repair so it could be that the riveting process employed by Brooks (presumably the same as that used with the regular steel rivets) was not suitable for the rather less malleable brass?

Although, as Brooks' only authorised spares and repairs specialist in this Country, I can obtain all their current range of rivets at a reasonable discount I generally find it still cheaper (and more practical) to source elsewhere for most of my other saddle work. Those illustrated at #12 and #15 above are typical of the type that I find quite satisfactory (sans washers and suitably 'modified') for most purposes where solid copper is appropriate, although mine are sourced and apparently made in this Country rather than HK ('wesells2014' also lists on ebay.com).

Anyone looking for the copper-plated tubular rivets used by Brooks on their steel-rivetted models for most of the 1980s/90s might care to note that I bought what was claimed to be their entire remaining stock (currently estimated by weight to number c. 10,000 pieces). I can find many uses for these, but doubt that I will ever exhaust my stock solely by my own efforts.

mrv 

grab more popcorn - this is a funny read why leather saddles are worth what they are worth.
https://teamdreambicyclingteam.com/p...20890246611021

cheers!

noglider 

Outstanding!

Johno59

I had a swift saddle over stretched. I extended the push rod but it started to flap about as the nose was too far away ftom the brace looped over the rail head. Decided to put a extra nose cone and bolted it to the original nose cone. This gave me another inch of adjustment but preserved the rigidity of the original dedign


Drilled three holes into the original nose to accommodate an old discarded nose to extend the adjustment


Second hole of three securing extension nose.


Jap faced bolt with nylon nut instead of rivet to secure booster nose

mrv 

what the heck is a j-a-p faced bolt? That looks like a pan head fastener - with a recessed hex-drive.
https://www.boltdepot.com/fastener-i...rminology.aspx
In my day to day job, I've had the opportunity work in great detail with all kinds of fasteners. Never of of that kind of faced bolt.
Very curious. Thanks!

ps: man, I thought my work area was a mess. You might have me beat. I need to search for the "show me your workbench" thread.....

Johno59

I like to let things flow. When I drop a 4 lb hammer on the floor and I can't find it, I get all fussy and have a good tidy up. The beauty of the 4 lb rule is if anything smaller - such as a Strumey Archer pawl spring ricochets off your nose and goes anywhere you don't even bother looking for it. Don't sweat the little things.
I'm currently rebuilding a 1949 FW 4 speed for the first time and I've lost 4 springs already and have to wait (at the pub) for the postman to save me from the 4 lb hammer rule.

Johno59

Waiting for the man
Postie, postie don't be slow be like me and go man go!

markk900

please don’t start such a thread - I am embarrassed enough and that bench is clean compared to mine. You lose pawl springs, I lose 3/8w wrenches....

Johno59

Postman bought 10 Strumey Archer pawl springs to go with the 3 springs that are somewhere around my shed or in a nearby hedge. Have to devise some means to lash the pawl spring to the pawl during installation otherwise they'll be like Elvis and........yeah.

tony colegrave

I don't think that that a Swift, looks more like a 'Swallow' to me. Those recent(ish) Swallow pastiches must be just about the worst saddles produced under the Brooks name for many a year?

Johno59

You are right. This saddle is barely broken in and the tensioning bolt had bottomed out. It will interesting to see if an extra inch of stretching doesn't collapse what is a very expensive saddle. I have it on a TT bike so it isn't worked hard.

slow_runner

Don't talk to me about SA pawl springs
I lost one(?) three times while stripping and rebuilding the hub. Once in the garden, again in the garage and finally outside on the concrete drive. I like to vary my work place
Magnet fishing and a large amount of good fortune saved the day; and a lot of time if I had to order them in from the Homeland.
The hub with wheel was reassembled on the kitchen table.

About copper rivets. I have two Brooks B66S saddles that have problems with the original rivets having 'bitten' into the leather. The worst saddle has been ridden when wet. The leather will need some attention too.
Before they progress too far I will be replacing the rivets with copper.
It was common to anneal old copper head gaskets years back. Our Triumphs and Nortons operated well with that treatment on new and old gaskets.
Has anyone annealed the rivets to enable easier swaging? Or maybe that process may make them too soft??

Big Block

As part of making my rivets, I anneal them prior to installation.
This is to deal with the work hardening caused my the hammering to shape.
I wouldn't have thought it was required using a standard Brooks copper rivet.