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Jackie and Joules - My '74 Paramount Touring Gets Campagnolo Electronic Shifting!

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Jackie and Joules - My '74 Paramount Touring Gets Campagnolo Electronic Shifting!

Old 03-08-19, 04:32 AM
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I think I can add and "advantage" to 11-sp EPS/eTap/Di2: Cassettes work across the brands. You get any 11-sp set of wheels, or a Shimano/SRAM 8/9/10 set using the wide-range CST-8000 Shimano cassette (11-32 and 11-34 only). The spacing is the same.

So, you get a Shimano/SRAM 8/9/10 set, an 11-32 CST-8000 11-sp cassette, pick up the shifters/FD/RD mini-group, and you're dialed it for quite a while, and the RD will handle the wide range "for you."
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Old 03-08-19, 12:23 PM
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I agree. Campy offers an 11-speed cassette that goes to 32T, but that is available/meant only for the Centaur groupset as the Centaur RD is a medium or long cage design, and not a short cage.
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Old 03-18-19, 02:57 PM
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An update and some food for thought concerning electronic shifting as these systems age:

I was out on a ride with @tricky, which was a lot of fun. Apart from some minor seat post clamp issues on his new build/refitting, the P15 stole the 'mechanical' show by having its lithium-ion battery die. Two weeks and only 50-ish miles? It's gotta be those Italian electronics, right?

The ride was just getting started and we were close enough to the start that tricky said once we got back to the start, he'd drive my dead bike back home and we'd swap to one with cables, and continue the festivities. The mighty Impulse was chosen and we were on our way. The P15 was caught in a high gear, and was 33% through a shift, so I sounded like I car that had rod knock. I also did not know that you can "unhook" the RD and push things to an easier gear (let alone nicely aligned), and then when charged, push it back and it re-hooks or reengages.

I did notice, as I was riding to our start/meet point, that the shifting was sometimes not happening. Press the button sometimes, and nothing happened. Most of the time it would. So the battery dying makes sense.

******

Upon some online research, the culprit is a tandem of 1) battery age in conjunction with improper or simply 2) not charging it fully every three months, as per Campagnolo training and recommendation. This is apparently due to lithium-ion batteries' propensity to "under-volting" if this isn't done. They basically become lesser capacity versions of themselves, which sucks. I have a "new" 4-5 year old battery, presumably, especially as it's a V1 and not a V3 like they're on right now. The chances of having that charging done for all that time is...slim to none.

The DTI/battery box has a hole for a magnetic plug to pop into. This turns the entire system off. The EPS system runs checks and diagnostics every 15-20 seconds from what I read. It's a small drain, but a drain nevertheless, on the battery. I did not 'turn off' the system over these last (short) two weeks. A normal and happy battery, even without turning them off, lasts for considerably longer and over considerably more miles.

******

What does this mean for electronic shifting systems in the future, when they become "just old" or eventually "C&V" (lol!)? Well, the switchgear will likely be just fine, but the batteries will likely be all toast, or nearly so. Oh to find an "always charged at the correct intervals--battery still has full charge and duration capabilities" DTI box on Ebay or CL 20 years in the future!

I think what will have to happen is simply, if possible, electronic surgery. Cut into the battery box, replace the (very likely standard) lithium ion cells, patch up, and enjoy for years and miles to come. Talk about a cottage industry!

******

So what does this mean for me? Well, I will be charging fully again, always turning the system off when not using it, and riding it, monitoring the miles and duration of charge. Sure, this is not ideal, but this is the reality of the technology at this time. If I can maintain this shortened duration and have that be "the norm" for it, for a long time, that will be ok with me. A little inconvenient, but it works. If I have diminishing battery life from its currently reduced state, that will force my hand. Another option, technically, is to buy a (much more expensive) Chorus V2 battery and corresponding charger. But unless further research proves otherwise, V2 batteries are subject to the same fate if not charged regularly, so I'd be back to square one.

As sad and frankly hilarious as it was to have the battery die mid ride (and we were hauling), the biggest thing was that the bike felt so dang good to ride. The Ergo shifter shape is fantastic, as are the shift buttons and levers. Great feel and weight. The shifts are great as well. It's a system worth keeping on the bike because when it works, it's really really good.

Feel free to (internally) gloat, cable-only people. I honestly don't care, because I still have a bunch of other cable-only bikes and it's not like this build is the start of an all-EPS/Di2 re-outfitting revolution of my fleet. Somebody's got to be (one of) the first to cut through the brush with a machete. Electronic shifting as an era has already begun. Second-hand electronic shifting has also, but nearly a decade after the first versions, where prices are perhaps cheaper and availability is more--that's where we are. It's a good lesson, and one that will keep me on the path to learning and figuring out how to keep making it work. The technological baton is being handed off--I'm working to not drop it.

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Old 03-18-19, 02:59 PM
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Too hot to give up on:

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Old 03-18-19, 03:26 PM
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Originally Posted by RiddleOfSteel View Post




I think what will have to happen is simply, if possible, electronic surgery. Cut into the battery box, replace the (very likely standard) lithium ion cells, patch up, and enjoy for years and miles to come. Talk about a cottage industry!

******
maybe you can find a dead one that someone will give you so you can experiment on? it would be interesting to see if the cells are 18650 (used in laptop battery packs and single for flashlights) or what

Cottage industry yes: this could be like the people who repair tubies...... or who did capaciator replace in e36 Bmw heat/AC controls boards
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Old 03-18-19, 03:36 PM
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Surprised if there's not a how-to on Youtube in regards to a battery switch. That kind of thing helped me when I needed to replace the battery in my Samsung tablet - not a fun job but definitely doable.
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Old 03-18-19, 03:58 PM
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Originally Posted by RiddleOfSteel View Post
What does this mean for electronic shifting systems in the future, when they become "just old" or eventually "C&V" (lol!)?
I'm hoping that it'll be possible to hack solid state batteries into equipment originally intended to work with Li-ion. I have no idea if Li-ion charging systems will be backwards compatible though.

It should be interesting to see if solid state winds up having any discharging issues. Far as I know, they can't chemically undervolt from overcharging like Li-ion does - though I've also had Li-ions die prematurely despite proper charging procedures - and every other battery charging technology before it has had one issue or another to result in relatively truncated lifespans.

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Old 03-18-19, 04:08 PM
  #83  
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Originally Posted by squirtdad View Post
maybe you can find a dead one that someone will give you so you can experiment on? it would be interesting to see if the cells are 18650 (used in laptop battery packs and single for flashlights) or what

Cottage industry yes: this could be like the people who repair tubies...... or who did capaciator replace in e36 Bmw heat/AC controls boards
Totally. I may have disposed of the old and broken DTI box (cut wires etc), but I don't remember doing so, so perhaps it's tucked away in a box. I hope. I'd cut that one up and see what I'd be dealing with.

There should be someone that rebuilds or simply recreates the fuel-injection harnesses on old E30 6-cylinder cars. Couldn't believe Pelican parts or anyone else didn't have that. There were harnesses/sub-harnesses for everything else it seemed. My dad helped me redo mine, which was successful.
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Old 03-18-19, 04:10 PM
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Originally Posted by PilotFishBob View Post
Surprised if there's not a how-to on Youtube in regards to a battery switch. That kind of thing helped me when I needed to replace the battery in my Samsung tablet - not a fun job but definitely doable.
The little magnet/plug is thankfully simple and easy. It's in the instructions, just, not emphasized. And a new battery will last fine without the "off" switch, or so say a number of users in the past. I'm employing it now!

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Old 03-18-19, 04:26 PM
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Originally Posted by cudak888 View Post
I'm hoping that it'll be possible to hack solid state batteries into equipment originally intended to work with Li-ion. I have no idea if Li-ion charging systems will be backwards compatible though.

It should be interesting to see if solid state winds up having any discharging issues. Far as I know, they can't chemically undervolt from overcharging like Li-ion does - though I've also had Li-ions die prematurely despite proper charging procedures - and every other battery charging technology before it has had one issue or another to result in relatively truncated lifespans.

-Kurt
That would be pretty cool. Battery tech continues to improve, but some modularity for small stuff like EPS would be nice to have. What would disallow SS from being backwards compatible with Li-ion?

The Li-ion battery in the EPS unit is three 4V cells. Forgot to mention that bit.
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Old 03-18-19, 04:37 PM
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I was leaning over on the fence, about to fall into an electronic poop pile, when I read the latest. A friend of mine has been on EPS/Di2/eTap for a while now, and he's constantly turning over gear. He's offered me his EPS and Di2 at various times, for good prices.

However, almost everything he sells has a small issue. An outer wheel nut, a stripped cable clamping bolt, a tubular with a bad core. Often, it's due to his over-tightening (body builder/personal trainer), but often, it's his hurry to get stuff done.

I guarantee if I'd have bought his EPS or Di2, I'd be in the same boat. I'm still interested, but I'm reading up on stuff. No doubt there will be batteries on the market soon, and any doubt will go away.

Until then, to keep myself out of the electronic poop pile, I bought a track bike. Different poop pile, from what I understand.
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Old 03-18-19, 05:41 PM
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Originally Posted by RiddleOfSteel View Post
That would be pretty cool. Battery tech continues to improve, but some modularity for small stuff like EPS would be nice to have. What would disallow SS from being backwards compatible with Li-ion?

The Li-ion battery in the EPS unit is three 4V cells. Forgot to mention that bit.
I really don't know much about solid state tech - not enough of the technical end to know the differences between charging systems, at least. I have read up a bit on the electrolyte limitations too; seems as if Ionic Materials has it covered best: https://www.theverge.com/2018/8/13/1...olyte-analysis

I'm sure I'll find out once it trickles down through the web of internet geekery, but I'll do some Google-fu in the meantime.

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Old 03-18-19, 06:39 PM
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Originally Posted by cudak888 View Post
I really don't know much about solid state tech - not enough of the technical end to know the differences between charging systems, at least. I have read up a bit on the electrolyte limitations too; seems as if Ionic Materials has it covered best: https://www.theverge.com/2018/8/13/1...olyte-analysis

I'm sure I'll find out once it trickles down through the web of internet geekery, but I'll do some Google-fu in the meantime.

-Kurt
I did some very minimal searching as well, but it seemed you might be more hip to it than I. Looks like it's still "a nice thing when it happens" and not viable at present. Bummer.
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Old 03-18-19, 06:44 PM
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Originally Posted by RobbieTunes View Post
I was leaning over on the fence, about to fall into an electronic poop pile, when I read the latest. A friend of mine has been on EPS/Di2/eTap for a while now, and he's constantly turning over gear. He's offered me his EPS and Di2 at various times, for good prices.

However, almost everything he sells has a small issue. An outer wheel nut, a stripped cable clamping bolt, a tubular with a bad core. Often, it's due to his over-tightening (body builder/personal trainer), but often, it's his hurry to get stuff done.

I guarantee if I'd have bought his EPS or Di2, I'd be in the same boat. I'm still interested, but I'm reading up on stuff. No doubt there will be batteries on the market soon, and any doubt will go away.

Until then, to keep myself out of the electronic poop pile, I bought a track bike. Different poop pile, from what I understand.
Sounds like even though the actual electronics portion of those groupsets has been fine, it's the human interface/assembly parts that are messed up due to user error. The groupset may work as intended, but the peripheral elements would dampen the experience, which isn't the case for 99% of conscientious builders. In my case, everything works flawlessly and I was careful to connect things, leave slack, and protect bits and pieces. It's just the battery. Man, if it ain't one thing I guess it's another.

I'm in the track bike pile with my no-one-knows-anything-about-it Bushnell. Gotta find a good crankset now.
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Old 03-18-19, 09:07 PM
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Originally Posted by RiddleOfSteel View Post
I did some very minimal searching as well, but it seemed you might be more hip to it than I. Looks like it's still "a nice thing when it happens" and not viable at present. Bummer.
Hip to the news of it and basic tech, but not enough to go full Instructables on one, unfortunately.

Apparently, one Chinese company is already at it - but there are no specifics about the electrolyte used.

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Old 03-19-19, 04:44 AM
  #91  
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@cudak888 time to be on the cutting edge of future vintage electronic shifting rehab. Is it too early to create "www.E-ShiftSPA.com?"

Of course this will soon open the whole array of uninvited and illogical comments such as "It's a consumable--- just throw it away." Or "Just spray it with CRC Electronics Cleaner and you are good to go." Or "Dribble in heated up dielectric grease until it runs out clean."

The unfortunate side of the Electronic Shifting is that we can be pretty certain that Shimano, SRAM and even Campagnolo, will eventually (and sooner as opposed to later) not make any replacement parts for their E-Shift systems and a perfectly good 10 year old system will be handicapped by something as simple as a battery which was never intended to be replaced.

Just my un-invited two cents for the day.
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Old 03-19-19, 10:52 AM
  #92  
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With the batteries sealed against the elements (a great thing), it only furthers the "just replace it" mentality because it would take a lot to get to it to replace it. I don't anticipate replacement batteries, or perhaps any component, being made for these by the OEMs. I think it will be up to an enterprising few to make truly aftermarket parts for 'restorations' or upgrades (like, to wireless or semi-wireless).

I know there's another thread about E-Bikes and whatever shall we do, but really, they're whatever. Try electronic shifting for the masses. I see this very much coming within 5-10 years. Buttons and electronics are cheap. Once Shimano gets in on the wireless gig--with R7000 or R7100 likely getting Di2 next, it's over. How hard is it to build a Tiagra or Sora groupset with button-shifting? Cheap electronics? Welcome to the best future...
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Old 03-19-19, 11:17 AM
  #93  
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Originally Posted by RiddleOfSteel View Post
With the batteries sealed against the elements (a great thing), it only furthers the "just replace it" mentality because it would take a lot to get to it to replace it. I don't anticipate replacement batteries, or perhaps any component, being made for these by the OEMs. I think it will be up to an enterprising few to make truly aftermarket parts for 'restorations' or upgrades (like, to wireless or semi-wireless).

I know there's another thread about E-Bikes and whatever shall we do, but really, they're whatever. Try electronic shifting for the masses. I see this very much coming within 5-10 years. Buttons and electronics are cheap. Once Shimano gets in on the wireless gig--with R7000 or R7100 likely getting Di2 next, it's over. How hard is it to build a Tiagra or Sora groupset with button-shifting? Cheap electronics? Welcome to the best future...
this has been my theory for while.....at a point in time it will be cheaper, even for BSO, to put wireless, especially with a 1xX setup, on than to run the cables.
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Old 03-19-19, 05:43 PM
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Originally Posted by squirtdad View Post
this has been my theory for while.....at a point in time it will be cheaper, even for BSO, to put wireless, especially with a 1xX setup, on than to run the cables.
For sure. Just think about how easy 8-speed Di2 Shimano Alfine would be to implement--no gear/derailleur tuning necessary. Just a normal and easy single speed setup.
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Old 03-19-19, 08:11 PM
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Originally Posted by RiddleOfSteel View Post
Try electronic shifting for the masses. I see this very much coming within 5-10 years. Buttons and electronics are cheap.
Remember, "the masses" have enough trouble trying to figure out a 3-speed IGH. Trying to explain to the layperson why you can't shift a derailer when stopped usually gets you that well-known deer in the headlights look.

Add a front derailer into it and you might as well use that light and sound disco show from Close Encounters of the Third Kind to explain bicycle shifting.

However, I can see this tech being used to make a self-shifting electric IGH. Unlike all the previous self-shifting kludges of the past, the IGH's computer could take in rider speed, cadence, pedal force, and gradient data to provide dynamic shift points. Users could conceivably set custom shift points with a USB or Bluetooth connection too. The actuating rod may not need as much force as a derailer either, which would increase onboard battery life.

Yet, as cool as that sounds, I also think such a thing will never be marketable. The type of person willing to pay enough to buy a bike with an electronic shifting IGH is the person who'll spend another $1,000 to upgrade to an e-bike so they can pedal like Superman.

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