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How important is vintage bike weight?

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How important is vintage bike weight?

Old 02-25-19, 10:49 PM
  #76  
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Originally Posted by smontanaro View Post
I'm guessing it matters to some people.

Jeff Lutz 57 Chevy Belair at World Street Nationals
I guess that looks like a 57 Chevy but I'm not sure what percent of that vehicle actually was a 57 Chevy. Not to belittle 57 Chevys... In their time they were contenders in all forms of stock car racing for sure.

Originally Posted by gugie View Post
Although this is technically correct, in actuality even the strongest riders don't accelerate that quickly, and the additional force required to accelerate is far down on the list of things that slow you down.

"In summary, wheels account for almost 10% of the total power required to race your bike and the dominant factor in wheel performance is aerodynamics. Wheel mass is a second order effect (nearly 10 times less significant) and wheel inertia is a third order effect (nearly 100 times less significant)."

So rotating weight is nearly insignificant. The old saying that a pound in the wheels is worth 10 on the frame is a pure myth.
Indeed. Laypeople get hold of the fact that mass of the wheel periphery counts 4 2 times as much as non-rotating mass when it comes to acceleration and immediately translate this to contrafactual hypotheses about wheel mass versus total mass as an indicator of overall bicycle efficiency.

Originally Posted by kross57 View Post
I'm not an engineer, but I can't see what possible difference it makes if the weight is IN the bike or ON the bike. Weight is weight. Every extra ounce you need to move from a stop adds to the resistance. No? And the person on the bike is by far the heaviest component. Just saying...
Quite right. Only proviso is wheel mass, at the periphery, does exert a 4 2x effect with regard to acceleration and deceleration. This should only matter to racers, and wannabees, ride quality notwithstanding.
I must confess my butt is not sensitive enough to discern differences in wheel mass or tire type, when it comes to ride quality, but by no means do I discount the claims of those with more discerning posteriors.

Originally Posted by Kuromori View Post
7.5 seconds in the red at the end of a climb is really that much though.
To whom?
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Old 02-25-19, 11:39 PM
  #77  
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Originally Posted by old's'cool View Post
Laypeople get hold of the fact that mass of the wheel periphery counts 4 times as much as non-rotating mass when it comes to acceleration
2 times as much, not 4 times.

The speed at which the tire moves in its circular path around the wheel axle is the same as the speed at which the bicycle is moving forward. So the amount of energy that it takes to accelerate that mass forward (without spinning it) is the same as the amount of energy that it takes to get it to spin at that speed (without moving it forward). Doing both of those things takes twice as much energy as doing one of them.
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Old 02-25-19, 11:44 PM
  #78  
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Originally Posted by old's'cool View Post
To whom?
To people that actually go hard on hard climbs. i.e. people who go in the red. Especially when pushing stuff where it's more of a question if you can do them and not how fast you can do them, and it's not just a matter of throttling your effort. That's 7.5 seconds less of being out of breath, cramping legs, and overall feeling like you're about to die. Short of getting hit by a car or otherwise crashing, the last seconds of a hard all out climbing effort is one of the most torturous experiences on a bicycle, whether you hate it or you're someone that fetishizes suffering. Sure you could say go slower, but it never quite works out that way. If you're only riding at 50% effort all the time, bumping it up to 55% is barely noticeable. If you're doing 95% efforts, 5% suddenly becomes excruciating. Honestly not sure why this is a difficult concept if you've ever been there. It's like when you see those people who walk their bike up the last meters of a climb.

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Old 02-25-19, 11:58 PM
  #79  
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Originally Posted by Kuromori View Post
To people that actually go hard on hard climbs. i.e. people who go in the red. Especially when pushing stuff where it's more of a question if you can do them and not how fast you can do them, and it's not just a matter of throttling your effort. That's 7.5 seconds less of being out of breath, cramping legs, and overall feeling like you're about to die. Short of getting hit by a car or otherwise crashing, the last seconds of a hard all out climbing effort is one of the most torturous experiences on a bicycle, whether you hate it or you're someone that fetishizes suffering. Sure you could say go slower, but it never quite works out that way. If you're only riding at 50% effort all the time, bumping it up to 55% is barely noticeable. If you're doing 95% efforts, 5% suddenly becomes excruciating. Honestly not sure why this is a difficult concept if you've ever been there. It's like when you see those people who walk their bike up the last meters of a climb.
Seeing as ďclassic and vintageĒ can be applied to most of the readers of this particular forum, Iíd say most of us are closer to the former category than the latter.

;-)
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Old 02-26-19, 12:09 AM
  #80  
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Originally Posted by gugie View Post

Seeing as ďclassic and vintageĒ can be applied to most of the readers of this particular forum, Iíd say most of us are closer to the former category than the latter.

;-)
I seen plenty of vintage folks on the climbs and a few of them walking bikes towards the top. No one was born a classic either. Just saying. To be fair though, I don't think anyone serious about climbing nowadays would voluntarily use a downtube rear shifter. I know I've gotten myself in trouble when stuck with only 42x26 for the entire climb.
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Old 02-26-19, 12:56 AM
  #81  
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Many, many years ago in the steel tube only era, when I was in a track bike racing development course, the instructors had two (2) responses to questions about saving weight on bike components.

1. "The best way to lighten the bike it to push yourself away from the table." and,
2. " When you start winning races, then consider going for lighter gear, since you earned them and it will help."

All things considered, on the equipment side, both then and now, a good set of wheels and tires do more to make me feel faster and ride longer than any other single item. .However, the wheels are nothing compared to losing 20+ pounds off of me.
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Old 02-26-19, 03:22 AM
  #82  
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Originally Posted by Kuromori View Post
To people that actually go hard on hard climbs. i.e. people who go in the red. Especially when pushing stuff where it's more of a question if you can do them and not how fast you can do them, and it's not just a matter of throttling your effort. That's 7.5 seconds less of being out of breath, cramping legs, and overall feeling like you're about to die. Short of getting hit by a car or otherwise crashing, the last seconds of a hard all out climbing effort is one of the most torturous experiences on a bicycle, whether you hate it or you're someone that fetishizes suffering. Sure you could say go slower, but it never quite works out that way. If you're only riding at 50% effort all the time, bumping it up to 55% is barely noticeable. If you're doing 95% efforts, 5% suddenly becomes excruciating. Honestly not sure why this is a difficult concept if you've ever been there. It's like when you see those people who walk their bike up the last meters of a climb.
Somehow, you quoted Old's'cool but it is attributed to me. I didn't type or say "To whom".

Here's what I posted:

"Just because someone has an engineering degree doesn't make them right. I've left a number diplomas at the base of climbs while I was riding some Mavic GEL280s with light tubies glued to them. They never did get close enough to explain why and frankly, I probably don't have the mental horsepower to understand

If the bike feels right to you, it's right, no matter what anyone else says with graphs/pie charts and what they consider to be an impressive curriculum vitae."

So in essence, you're preaching to the choir here.
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Old 02-26-19, 03:27 AM
  #83  
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Originally Posted by nomadmax View Post
Somehow, you quoted Old's'cool but it is attributed to me. I didn't type or say "To whom".

Here's what I posted:

"Just because someone has an engineering degree doesn't make them right. I've left a number diplomas at the base of climbs while I was riding some Mavic GEL280s with light tubies glued to them. They never did get close enough to explain why and frankly, I probably don't have the mental horsepower to understand

If the bike feels right to you, it's right, no matter what anyone else says with graphs/pie charts and what they consider to be an impressive curriculum vitae."

So in essence, you're preaching to the choir here.
My bad, must have deleted the wrong tags by accident.
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Old 02-26-19, 03:36 AM
  #84  
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Originally Posted by Kuromori View Post
My bad, must have deleted the wrong tags by accident.
We're good
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Old 02-26-19, 09:47 AM
  #85  
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Originally Posted by Kuromori View Post
To be fair though, I don't think anyone serious about climbing nowadays would voluntarily use a downtube rear shifter. I know I've gotten myself in trouble when stuck with only 42x26 for the entire climb.
Shifting with friction downtube shifters does take some forethought and planning. At the end of long ride, when I'm getting tired, I find it harder to do. Your point about bar mounted shifters is well taken.

I recently built a bike with downtube shifters for the first time in ages. I did it to make my bike easy to rinko. I was happy to find that ancient muscle memory was still there, and it wasn't nearly as bad as I thought it would be, but when I'm tired, I wish I didn't have to reach down, fumble around and shift.

Back on subject, downtube shifters are the lightest way to go, but that's low on the reason to use them.
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Old 02-26-19, 09:52 AM
  #86  
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Originally Posted by nomadmax View Post
Just because someone has an engineering degree doesn't make them right. I've left a number diplomas at the base of climbs while I was riding some Mavic GEL280s with light tubies glued to them. They never did get close enough to explain why and frankly, I probably don't have the mental horsepower to understand

If the bike feels right to you, it's right, no matter what anyone else says with graphs/pie charts and what they consider to be an impressive curriculum vitae.
All true and good, but your first statement is convoluting mental with physical acumen - something an engineer might point out
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Old 02-26-19, 10:10 AM
  #87  
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Originally Posted by gugie View Post
All true and good, but your first statement is convoluting mental with physical acumen - something an engineer might point out
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Old 02-26-19, 10:14 AM
  #88  
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Originally Posted by nomadmax View Post
On a bike, you can't buy or think your way up hills!

Well, there's those darn e-bikes...
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Old 02-26-19, 10:22 AM
  #89  
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Originally Posted by Kuromori View Post
I seen plenty of vintage folks on the climbs and a few of them walking bikes towards the top. No one was born a classic either. Just saying. To be fair though, I don't think anyone serious about climbing nowadays would voluntarily use a downtube rear shifter. I know I've gotten myself in trouble when stuck with only 42x26 for the entire climb.
I'm not in the category of 'serious climber', but I think 'modern' indexed DT shifters work very well for climbing unless the rider is standing for the entire time. I do agree that DT friction shifters would be a hindrance when compared to brifters.
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Old 02-26-19, 10:24 AM
  #90  
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I'm 5'8" 200lbs. That varies 10lbs one way or the other throughout the year. I need to trend downward more than 10, but that hasn't happened so far this year. Anyway, 10lbs for me is 1 cog. Go down 10 and I can climb on 1 less cog and visa versa. What is really noticeable weight wise, is the location of that weight. It is very important to keep that weight centered between the axles. I can ride 52, 54, or 56 frames. The 56 with a short(80-90) stem is the best feeling/handling frame size for me. The 52 with a long stem, is by far the worst. Too much weight gets out over the front axle and makes for an unpleasant ride. Out of the saddle climbing it feels like my front tire is flat or a brake is dragging. It is that noticeable.
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Old 02-26-19, 12:11 PM
  #91  
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Originally Posted by Kuromori View Post
I seen plenty of vintage folks on the climbs and a few of them walking bikes towards the top. No one was born a classic either. Just saying. To be fair though, I don't think anyone serious about climbing nowadays would voluntarily use a downtube rear shifter. I know I've gotten myself in trouble when stuck with only 42x26 for the entire climb.
I disagree. Thunder Ridge, The Dairyland Dare, and The Hilly Hundred are "serious about climbing." On them, I've used 9sp and 10sp DA DT shifting. It is great, both on the front and rear. You can grab multiple gears if you need, and the chain settles in almost immediately. I built those bikes that way, specifically for the easier use of DT shifting.

That being said, nothing beats anticipating shifts, and practice. Sure beats the chicken-wing flapping I see at a lot of rides, when the STI crowd realizes they're behind the curve.

Not sure why the DT shifter has anything to do with 42/26, but I agree that the gearing on some older bikes, especially the older 42/24, can really hurt.
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Old 02-26-19, 12:27 PM
  #92  
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Originally Posted by Kuromori View Post
I seen plenty of vintage folks on the climbs and a few of them walking bikes towards the top. No one was born a classic either. Just saying. To be fair though, I don't think anyone serious about climbing nowadays would voluntarily use a downtube rear shifter. I know I've gotten myself in trouble when stuck with only 42x26 for the entire climb.
What does gearing have to do with DT shifters? You might have to explain that for the rest of us. As Robbie can attest to, I don't use DT shifters, use lots of gearing, and yet still have to get off and walk at some point to the top.
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Old 02-26-19, 01:32 PM
  #93  
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The gearing has nothing to do with downtube shifting. It was just commentary on the suitability of C&V for hard climbing, and also that some C&V can get you into trouble on climbs. The light bikes tend to have that kind of hearing. The heavier bikes are well, heavier. I have never been as successful with DT shifters on steep stuff or rollers, it's just not feasible for me at least to keep powering through while shifting. You might say being able to anticipate makes you better, like riding a brakeless fixie, but in my experience it usually means you just end up with one gear, like a brakeless fixie. It's less about anticipation, it's more about being able to easily change a gear when the pitch changes or trying to get every last meter out of a gear possible. Example, there's this one neighborhood roller/climb, short but steep, about 15% or so. The downhill feeding into the climb is maybe 1/4-1/3 of the height. DT shifters mean pedaling downhill, shifting into the lowest gear, then coasting until the grade kills my speed to match the gear. Handlebar shifting I can go hard, full tilt, sprint to the top if I choose to, the entire way. There's a couple other short walls that peak around 20% that you want to try to get some momentum going first. Again DT shifters make it awkward. Standing and changing gears with DTs? You can forget that. On longer climbs I might not even bother with a gear change for false flats, and so on.

The fact that handlebar shifting is essentially instant and you can still apply power while shifting means that my shifting behavior with handlebar shifting and DT in climbs is very different and it has nothing to do with anticipation. Maybe my view of climbing is tainted with too many things over 10%+ and not miles and miles of steady 5%.

Last edited by Kuromori; 02-26-19 at 01:39 PM.
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Old 02-26-19, 02:12 PM
  #94  
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Originally Posted by Kuromori View Post
The gearing has nothing to do with downtube shifting. It was just commentary on the suitability of C&V for hard climbing, and also that some C&V can get you into trouble on climbs. The light bikes tend to have that kind of hearing. The heavier bikes are well, heavier. I have never been as successful with DT shifters on steep stuff or rollers, it's just not feasible for me at least to keep powering through while shifting. You might say being able to anticipate makes you better, like riding a brakeless fixie, but in my experience it usually means you just end up with one gear, like a brakeless fixie. It's less about anticipation, it's more about being able to easily change a gear when the pitch changes or trying to get every last meter out of a gear possible. Example, there's this one neighborhood roller/climb, short but steep, about 15% or so. The downhill feeding into the climb is maybe 1/4-1/3 of the height. DT shifters mean pedaling downhill, shifting into the lowest gear, then coasting until the grade kills my speed to match the gear. Handlebar shifting I can go hard, full tilt, sprint to the top if I choose to, the entire way. There's a couple other short walls that peak around 20% that you want to try to get some momentum going first. Again DT shifters make it awkward. Standing and changing gears with DTs? You can forget that. On longer climbs I might not even bother with a gear change for false flats, and so on.

The fact that handlebar shifting is essentially instant and you can still apply power while shifting means that my shifting behavior with handlebar shifting and DT in climbs is very different and it has nothing to do with anticipation. Maybe my view of climbing is tainted with too many things over 10%+ and not miles and miles of steady 5%.
Oh, so you are talking about brifters/STI/ergos and indexed shifting. Barcons can be indexed or friction as can DTs. Last time I checked, barcons were mounted on the handlebars. The instant shifting capability you talk about has nothing to do with where your shifters are located.
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Old 02-26-19, 02:36 PM
  #95  
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Originally Posted by RobbieTunes View Post
I disagree. Thunder Ridge, The Dairyland Dare, and The Hilly Hundred are "serious about climbing." On them, I've used 9sp and 10sp DA DT shifting. It is great, both on the front and rear. You can grab multiple gears if you need, and the chain settles in almost immediately. I built those bikes that way, specifically for the easier use of DT shifting.

That being said, nothing beats anticipating shifts, and practice. Sure beats the chicken-wing flapping I see at a lot of rides, when the STI crowd realizes they're behind the curve.

Not sure why the DT shifter has anything to do with 42/26, but I agree that the gearing on some older bikes, especially the older 42/24, can really hurt.
I've seen a number of brifter whacking riders go down on that first climb at Thunder Ridge. You tell them it's coming, but they don't listen. They make that turn and start frantically whacking away trying to get to the other end of the cassette. It's too late! They quickly come to a halt and fall over. A lot of them don't even get unclipped.
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Old 02-26-19, 02:38 PM
  #96  
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Originally Posted by seypat View Post
Oh, so you are talking about brifters/STI/ergos and indexed shifting. Barcons can be indexed or friction as can DTs. Last time I checked, barcons were mounted on the handlebars. The instant shifting capability you talk about has nothing to do with where your shifters are located.
If people talk about indexed DT then indexed barcons are fair game. Location of shifters does in fact have to do with instantaneousness of shifting. Are you somehow implying it is impossible to climb in the drops?
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Old 02-26-19, 02:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Kuromori View Post

If people talk about indexed DT then indexed barcons are fair game. Location of shifters does in fact have to do with instantaneousness of shifting. Are you somehow implying it is impossible to climb in the drops?
No, I do it all the time. I'm just trying to nail down this instant shifting capability you speak of. I think it has more to do with indexed shifting and less to do with DT shifting.
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Old 02-26-19, 03:17 PM
  #98  
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Originally Posted by seypat View Post
No, I do it all the time. I'm just trying to nail down this instant shifting capability you speak of. I think it has more to do with indexed shifting and less to do with DT shifting.
Itís being on the handlebars. You have to reach from the bars to the DT then back again to shift, then again if you need to trim. Maybe 1-2 seconds for a quick shift which is about 1-2 crank revolutions trying to soft pedal while slowing down because maintaining speed on steep stuff wouldnít be soft pedaling. Even with friction barcons you can shift quickly and trim at your convenience. Even if you donít want to climb in the drops, you donít have to move to and from the drops at the same time as a shift and you donít have to move your hands from the bars, do something, then back to the bars. Itís just moving between 2 points on the bar.
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Old 02-26-19, 03:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Kuromori View Post

Itís being on the handlebars. You have to reach from the bars to the DT then back again to shift, then again if you need to trim. Maybe 1-2 seconds for a quick shift which is about 1-2 crank revolutions trying to soft pedal while slowing down because maintaining speed on steep stuff wouldnít be soft pedaling. Even with friction barcons you can shift quickly and trim at your convenience. Even if you donít want to climb in the drops, you donít have to move to and from the drops at the same time as a shift and you donít have to move your hands from the bars, do something, then back to the bars. Itís just moving between 2 points on the bar.
Well you finally clarified it. Now we can go on. With DT indexed, the only hesitation is the reaching down part.Other than that, they are the same as any other indexed system. You might want to review your initial post. You were blaming people walking and gear limitations on a DT rear shifter. Very confusing.

I seen plenty of vintage folks on the climbs and a few of them walking bikes towards the top. No one was born a classic either. Just saying. To be fair though, I don't think anyone serious about climbing nowadays would voluntarily use a downtube rear shifter. I know I've gotten myself in trouble when stuck with only 42x26 for the entire climb.
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Old 02-26-19, 03:59 PM
  #100  
TugaDude
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To get back to the original question, "How important is vintage bike weight?" My answer is that it is not. Most of us don't race and I don't see too many racers using vintage bikes. So to me it is about the enjoyment of riding classic road bikes, track bikes, mountain or other. I have some of all of the above and enjoy them all.

I still get a kick out of my friends who ask about my bikes and they assume when I tell them they are mostly all steel frames that they must be boat anchors. One of my buddies had his aluminum mountain bike at a winery ride that we do and I pulled up on a steel roadie. I told him to pick mine up and he couldn't believe how light it felt. His aluminum bike was heavier. To be fair, his was a mountain bike and had a suspension fork, etc. but he was still blown away at how light my "boat anchor" was.

I have never been a weight weenie, have never build a bike as light as possible in order to say I did, but I won't criticize anyone if they choose to. Just not my thing. But if a bike "happens" to be light, great!
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