Any using or thinking tubeless for C&V road bike?
02-28-19, 12:38 PM
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Any using or thinking tubeless for C&V road bike?
I'm in the club for off-road and so far, the positives out weigh the negs.
Though I'm kind of sketchy for tubeless road applications, but only of safety concerns.
Also, most of my older bikes are tubular and I have no qualms riding older rubber that some probably would fear. Tubulars are a whole different matter vs clincher when they quickly drop.
But the tire makers are upping road clincher tire technology and their sales pitch is becoming convincing. Vittoria just announced an updated Graphene formula that's targeted for tubeless market.
Thinking of trying tubeless on a vintage 700c clincher, lighter wheel build fast bike.
Opinions, experience??
Vittoria tubeless Graphene 2
Though I'm kind of sketchy for tubeless road applications, but only of safety concerns.
Also, most of my older bikes are tubular and I have no qualms riding older rubber that some probably would fear. Tubulars are a whole different matter vs clincher when they quickly drop.
But the tire makers are upping road clincher tire technology and their sales pitch is becoming convincing. Vittoria just announced an updated Graphene formula that's targeted for tubeless market.
Thinking of trying tubeless on a vintage 700c clincher, lighter wheel build fast bike.
Opinions, experience??
Vittoria tubeless Graphene 2
02-28-19, 12:46 PM
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02-28-19, 12:54 PM
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I'm running tubeless on two bikes and a two more are tubeless ready, but have tubes installed. Tubeless is essential on gravel or anywhere the risk of pinch flats exist, but I'm not convinced of any significant advantages on pavement or with tires smaller than 700x30.
Some of the self repair feature of tubeless is lost at higher psi. Liquid latex will not seal a puncture until the psi drops to 50 psi or so. This is not a problem with bigger gravel ties, but road tires run at higher pressures.
Larger punctures may not seal at all. Cyclist still need to be ready to remove a tire and install a tube. Removing a tubeless tire with sealant installed can cause a mess and much slower than changing a regular tire with tubes.
Rolling resistance reductions are not always provided by a tubeless tire. Sometimes yes, but not always.
Some of the self repair feature of tubeless is lost at higher psi. Liquid latex will not seal a puncture until the psi drops to 50 psi or so. This is not a problem with bigger gravel ties, but road tires run at higher pressures.
Larger punctures may not seal at all. Cyclist still need to be ready to remove a tire and install a tube. Removing a tubeless tire with sealant installed can cause a mess and much slower than changing a regular tire with tubes.
Rolling resistance reductions are not always provided by a tubeless tire. Sometimes yes, but not always.
Last edited by Barrettscv; 03-01-19 at 07:02 AM.
02-28-19, 01:02 PM
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I have more of an observation than opinion ....but to be clear it is not based on personal experience....but by watching a lot of post on tubeless, so I fully acknowledge it's worth 
My understanding is that the genesis of tubeless was mountain bikes to avoid pinch flats at low pressures.
I don't see any advantage to going tubeless for road used at higher pressure
The ride with tires designed to be tubeless is not as good and tubeless designed tires are heavier.
You still need to carry a spare tube, if your sealant does not work....and it will then be a very messy change.
Sealing the bead seems to require special pumps or a compressor... not sure how this works for on the road changes
There is a school of thought that tubeless can lead to rim cracking (don't have a lot of citations.....there is a long thread on this)
Tubeless designed rims seem to work a lot better than conversions......and am speculating that converting an old lightweight non tubeless designed rim will have it's hassles
over all I don't see any advantages for over tubular at any pressure or over clincher/tube combos (at medium to high pressures)
My understanding is that the genesis of tubeless was mountain bikes to avoid pinch flats at low pressures.
I don't see any advantage to going tubeless for road used at higher pressure
The ride with tires designed to be tubeless is not as good and tubeless designed tires are heavier.
You still need to carry a spare tube, if your sealant does not work....and it will then be a very messy change.
Sealing the bead seems to require special pumps or a compressor... not sure how this works for on the road changes
There is a school of thought that tubeless can lead to rim cracking (don't have a lot of citations.....there is a long thread on this)
Tubeless designed rims seem to work a lot better than conversions......and am speculating that converting an old lightweight non tubeless designed rim will have it's hassles
over all I don't see any advantages for over tubular at any pressure or over clincher/tube combos (at medium to high pressures)
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02-28-19, 01:16 PM
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up to 28mm - 30mm, color me tubular.
beyond that = re-defines ‘road’ bike.
Last edited by Wildwood; 02-28-19 at 01:21 PM.
02-28-19, 01:34 PM
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Not a chance in Hades am I running tubeless... Ever.
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02-28-19, 03:32 PM
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I have one C&V running Bontrager RXL TLR wheels. The nerve to run tubeless on them, I do not possess.
I'm fine with what I'm doing, and I don't go offroad. I'm not squirting stuff into my tubes, or tires, for that matter.
I'm fine with what I'm doing, and I don't go offroad. I'm not squirting stuff into my tubes, or tires, for that matter.
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02-28-19, 04:23 PM
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I've been reading about tubeless and observing it. No opinions yet. I don't like to be an early adopter.
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02-28-19, 04:44 PM
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Originally Posted by crank_addict
I'm in the club for off-road and so far, the positives out weigh the negs.
Though I'm kind of sketchy for tubeless road applications, but only of safety concerns.
Also, most of my older bikes are tubular and I have no qualms riding older rubber that some probably would fear. Tubulars are a whole different matter vs clincher when they quickly drop.
But the tire makers are upping road clincher tire technology and their sales pitch is becoming convincing. Vittoria just announced an updated Graphene formula that's targeted for tubeless market.
Thinking of trying tubeless on a vintage 700c clincher, lighter wheel build fast bike.
Opinions, experience??
Vittoria tubeless Graphene 2
Though I'm kind of sketchy for tubeless road applications, but only of safety concerns.
Also, most of my older bikes are tubular and I have no qualms riding older rubber that some probably would fear. Tubulars are a whole different matter vs clincher when they quickly drop.
But the tire makers are upping road clincher tire technology and their sales pitch is becoming convincing. Vittoria just announced an updated Graphene formula that's targeted for tubeless market.
Thinking of trying tubeless on a vintage 700c clincher, lighter wheel build fast bike.
Opinions, experience??
Vittoria tubeless Graphene 2
And using triple cranks, it is possible to build a sleeper drivetrain with tight ratios that still permit fast club riding while keeping the funky options open for funky, fun drivetrains such as SunTour Winner 7 speed accushift or Uniglide 6 or 7 speed indexed.
Last edited by masi61; 02-28-19 at 05:37 PM.
02-28-19, 04:49 PM
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The Vito Graphene 2.0 is promising all sorts of magic numbers. Miniscule penalty is weight increase.
One beni I'm hoping for is no more pinch flats and stay with a 25 width. Quite a few bikes from the 1980s are at that max width. Last year on a rough course century, some paceline action and riding my Viner, had 'three' annoying pinch flats.
My first plan... at possibly trying for a vintage set up is seeking a box section rim with low well. So as prior to inflating, the tire beads are just hugging the center well (over non cloth tape, of course). Should be fairly easy to seat the bead without a big blast of air. Thinking possibly of F.i.R. EA50 rims. Already are brutal tight with the 2018 Vitt's Graphene 1.0.
I'm not even sure what they suggest for fluid that appropriately is compatible with Graphene. Interesting they haven't provided a list of recommendation.
One beni I'm hoping for is no more pinch flats and stay with a 25 width. Quite a few bikes from the 1980s are at that max width. Last year on a rough course century, some paceline action and riding my Viner, had 'three' annoying pinch flats.
My first plan... at possibly trying for a vintage set up is seeking a box section rim with low well. So as prior to inflating, the tire beads are just hugging the center well (over non cloth tape, of course). Should be fairly easy to seat the bead without a big blast of air. Thinking possibly of F.i.R. EA50 rims. Already are brutal tight with the 2018 Vitt's Graphene 1.0.
I'm not even sure what they suggest for fluid that appropriately is compatible with Graphene. Interesting they haven't provided a list of recommendation.
Last edited by crank_addict; 02-28-19 at 05:15 PM.
02-28-19, 07:05 PM
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If you haven't already, check the reviews here: https://www.bicyclerollingresistance.com/specials/schwalbe-one-tubeless-clincher
Also see: https://www.bicyclerollingresistance.com/road-bike-reviews
Also see: https://www.bicyclerollingresistance.com/road-bike-reviews
Last edited by Barrettscv; 02-28-19 at 07:11 PM.
03-01-19, 09:17 AM
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I'd be hesitant to use tubeless with road-sized tires if the rim wasn't explicitly designed for it. Imagine railing a turn at 20MPH, only to have a bead break loose. It's not just embarrassing like it would be on a slow-speed mountain bike.
It's one of the few places (tires 28mm and under...) where I absolutely wouldn't use something that either a) passed UST certification, or b) follows it very closely (bead hooks and locks). The time spent stripping/polishing something like an Alex Adventurer 2 is worth the time/pain spent recovering from an injury.
$0.02
It's one of the few places (tires 28mm and under...) where I absolutely wouldn't use something that either a) passed UST certification, or b) follows it very closely (bead hooks and locks). The time spent stripping/polishing something like an Alex Adventurer 2 is worth the time/pain spent recovering from an injury.
$0.02
03-01-19, 09:33 AM
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This thread has caused me to look at two bikes I have. These modern road bikes use 700x25 and 700x32 tires and already have tubeless ready rims. I now have tubes installed and didn't see much of a reason to go tubeless. The introduction of the Continental GP 5000 TL (tubeless) provides cyclist with exceptional levels of low rolling resistance while maintaining the flat protection of the GP 4000 S II. That's a strong reason to convert to tubeless in these sizes. Prior to this tire, the tubeless versions of popular tires in the 23-28 sizes didn't offer such a clear advantage.
However I still won't be putting tubeless on any of my steel bikes. I do take my Simoncini Cyclocross Special on crushed limestone and the performance has been more than sufficient with a 700x32 Compass Stampede Pass with tubes.
However I still won't be putting tubeless on any of my steel bikes. I do take my Simoncini Cyclocross Special on crushed limestone and the performance has been more than sufficient with a 700x32 Compass Stampede Pass with tubes.
Last edited by Barrettscv; 03-01-19 at 11:29 AM.
03-01-19, 10:42 AM
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Tubeless exists to prevent pinch flats; from the MTB world, for running fat tires at low pressures. As an aside, the elite-level guys and gals run tubulars (yes, tubulars) at MTB events, in gear that the public cannot buy, or even view in the catalogues.
So let's check our heads in this... if you are not getting pinch flats on the road because you are inflating you tires to spec, and you are not deliberately running into curbs, why run tubeless? You may want to run sealant, but you can do this with regular tubes with removable valve cores. 20cc's makes road tires almost impervious.
Finally, tubulars are currently, and always will be the performance leaders. You don't get pinch flats due to the smoother rim profile. The tires stay stuck to the rim in the event of a sudden deflation - a major safety consideration. And most importantly, the tubular rim profile saves a minimum of 100g per rim at the very most important point on a bike. There are other technical benefits that include increased effective air volume, and resistance to overheating on descents.
Tubular is by far the best solution, so if you are successfully running them now, you'd be making a major step backwards in going to tubeless.
BTW: you can inject 20cc of Stan's into your standard road tubular to make it very very hard to flat.
So let's check our heads in this... if you are not getting pinch flats on the road because you are inflating you tires to spec, and you are not deliberately running into curbs, why run tubeless? You may want to run sealant, but you can do this with regular tubes with removable valve cores. 20cc's makes road tires almost impervious.
Finally, tubulars are currently, and always will be the performance leaders. You don't get pinch flats due to the smoother rim profile. The tires stay stuck to the rim in the event of a sudden deflation - a major safety consideration. And most importantly, the tubular rim profile saves a minimum of 100g per rim at the very most important point on a bike. There are other technical benefits that include increased effective air volume, and resistance to overheating on descents.
Tubular is by far the best solution, so if you are successfully running them now, you'd be making a major step backwards in going to tubeless.
BTW: you can inject 20cc of Stan's into your standard road tubular to make it very very hard to flat.
03-01-19, 02:33 PM
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Jan Heine makes the best argument against tubeless road tires here:
He actually has things to say as well: https://janheine.wordpress.com/
He actually has things to say as well: https://janheine.wordpress.com/
03-01-19, 03:48 PM
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I’ve made my first foray to tubeless with Pacenti wheels and 700 x 38mm Gravel King tires on my Ti road bike. I’m running them at about 45 psi rear and 40 front, so I don’t worry about them blowing off. Haven’t made up my mind about the ride yet, whether it’s the tires or the whole bike. It’ll get some miles come spring.
03-01-19, 04:54 PM
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I think tubeless is coming whether we like it or not. Just like disc brakes.
As far as I know, only road bicycles, kids bicycles, and track bicycles still use inner tubes. Mountain bikes, motorcycles, cars, trucks, farm equipment, golf cars, etc etc all tubeless.
Fixing a flat on the road? CO2 inflaters can pop a tubeless onto the bead and seat it properly.Most younger guys carry CO2 "pumps"
Tubeless tires are heavier than non-tubeless clinchers, usually 40-80grams compared to the same model tire. BUT you don;t need a tube which weighs 55-130grams. I assume tubeless tape is roughly the same mass as normal rim tape? So overall, lighter. A little.
The big benefit is that they can be run lower pressure. So more supple.
Also, lower rolling resistance. So less watts per kph.
I was very reluctant to embrace wider tires -after all, I used to race on 21mm tires on GEL280 rims back in the twentieth century. Now all my bikes have at least 28mm tires mounted. And I am starting to switch over to wide rims. I built up a set of H Plus Sons Archetypes, and they are my favorite wheels.
Next, I want to try some Hed Belgium+ -wide, tubeless, cool.
As far as I know, only road bicycles, kids bicycles, and track bicycles still use inner tubes. Mountain bikes, motorcycles, cars, trucks, farm equipment, golf cars, etc etc all tubeless.
Fixing a flat on the road? CO2 inflaters can pop a tubeless onto the bead and seat it properly.Most younger guys carry CO2 "pumps"
Tubeless tires are heavier than non-tubeless clinchers, usually 40-80grams compared to the same model tire. BUT you don;t need a tube which weighs 55-130grams. I assume tubeless tape is roughly the same mass as normal rim tape? So overall, lighter. A little.
The big benefit is that they can be run lower pressure. So more supple.
Also, lower rolling resistance. So less watts per kph.
I was very reluctant to embrace wider tires -after all, I used to race on 21mm tires on GEL280 rims back in the twentieth century. Now all my bikes have at least 28mm tires mounted. And I am starting to switch over to wide rims. I built up a set of H Plus Sons Archetypes, and they are my favorite wheels.
Next, I want to try some Hed Belgium+ -wide, tubeless, cool.
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03-01-19, 05:03 PM
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Originally Posted by masi61
I will be very interested to read the reviews on the Vittoria tubeless tires. I started a threads a few month ago speculating that for classic and vintage applications - tubeless tires sound like a very practical choice. Personally, I think it would be cool to build a wheelset with vintage 126mm hubs but build them into modern tubeless rims such as HED Belgium + or Velocity Quill rim brake rims. Either of these rims would work great with some great tubeless tires. Vintage frames can accommodate the wider tires which opens up some real possibilities.
And using triple cranks, it is possible to build a sleeper drivetrain with tight ratios that still permit fast club riding while keeping the funky options open for funky, fun drivetrains such as SunTour Winner 7 speed accushift or Uniglide 6 or 7 speed indexed.
And using triple cranks, it is possible to build a sleeper drivetrain with tight ratios that still permit fast club riding while keeping the funky options open for funky, fun drivetrains such as SunTour Winner 7 speed accushift or Uniglide 6 or 7 speed indexed.
03-01-19, 05:10 PM
#21
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After a decade of flatting on tubulars, combined with the emergence of excellent clinchers, I switched to clinchers.
After a decade of flatting clinchers, I finally figured out tires require proper inflation.
Properly inflated, I no longer get flats.
With no flats, there's no reason to go tubeless, is there?
After a decade of flatting clinchers, I finally figured out tires require proper inflation.
Properly inflated, I no longer get flats.
With no flats, there's no reason to go tubeless, is there?
03-01-19, 08:19 PM
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Originally Posted by cannonride15
Please elaborate on how you conclude 'for classic and vintage applications - tubeless tires sound like a very practical choice'; practical in what regard? Not having to carry a tube? Ah, but you do if you flat and don't have the pressure to seat the now sealer dripping tire and rim. Ever pumped up a tire with you're little mini pump? About as practical as fitting 11 speed cassettes or disc brakes on C&V bikes! YMMV.
You still would have have to carry a tube I imagine, should you have an unsealable puncture on the road. It is a bit harder to do on the road, but after you’ve at least seen it done once, it is a bit less mystifying. A properly set up tubeless road tire with sealant promises develop punctures less often. I carry a Topeak Road Morph pump on the side of my bottle cage. It is like a mini foot pump - definitely more effective than your average mini-pump. In the future I will likely carry a CO2 inflator and my Road Morph pump in order to have the capability to handle a variety of tubed or tubeless tire issues while on the road.
I’m a retrogrouch when it comes to gearing, not wanting to exceed 7 rear cogs on my Masi, St. Tropez or Puch. But tires & rims? Why limit yourself to outdated choices?
03-02-19, 09:42 AM
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Yes, I think about it, and I'm thinking about it now. And what I'm thinking is: what am I thinking? This is crazy talk!
But I'm still thinking about it.
But I'm still thinking about it.
03-02-19, 06:43 PM
#24
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I've been on tubeless MTB tires for a long time now. They're fussy, but worth it for me. I do it to eliminate pinch flats, reduce puncture flats and most importantly, provide better traction. Tubeless is more supple at a given pressure, and has allowed me to drop my pressure a bit to achieve even more traction.
I don't see why road tires wouldn't also be improved with more supple feel at a given pressure. I've already converted entirely to wider high TPI road tires, tubeless should be even better, no?
I don't see why road tires wouldn't also be improved with more supple feel at a given pressure. I've already converted entirely to wider high TPI road tires, tubeless should be even better, no?
03-02-19, 11:43 PM
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I’m not considering it, especially for the 700C bikes. But I expect it’ll get harder to avoid rims and tires that are “tubeless-compatible” unless you use cheap stuff.
