peripatetic

Some of you may have noticed my earlier posting about a Trek 400, which turned out to be a 460. Since my one test ride, I've suddenly become consumed with the vintage steel frames. Meantime, I go out on my Miyata roadbike tonight, and suddenly realize that what I love about it, even though it's not fixed gear, is its Shimano "golden arrow" 105 components (Suntour RD), along with the Dura Ace pedals I've put on it. Man, the difference a beautifully made drive train can make. And I have to say, I really like friction shifters on the downtube--silky smooth, and oh so quiet.

I'm wondering now about older components in general. Anybody willing to give a nice, quick briefing on older components, maybe even good value older stuff. Like I said, friction is no issue. Are Campy comps as truly wonderful as they're renowned to be?

Where would one start if they wanted to outfit an 80s roadbike with some nice riding, vintage components?

Thanks in advance,


max

PS Also, anyone out there know anything about vintage track parts?

Kogswell

I'll give it a shot.

Campagnolo is a good place to start. The nice people at CampyOnly.com have scanned the catalogs and they're available here: https://www.campyonly.com/history/catalogs.html

The 17a catalog shows the Campagnolo line at its zenith. In it we see both the Neuvo Record and Super Record 'grouppos', also referred to as NR and SR. These two groups share many components: crank arms and bottom brackets, brake calipers and the hubs. The SR chainrings are fancier, and I still think the SR crankset is the prettiest of all time, followed by the Dura Ace AX. And the SR group had some other nice bits: drilled brake levers, the flutted, single bolt seat post, alloy headset and the SR rear derailleur.

Campagnolo parts from that time were finished beautifully. A 'full SR' bike is something to be seen.

Campagnolo parts were also tough and they functioned well. The bearings were smooth and there was no slop in shifting or braking. If you've never felt the action on an old set of Campagnolo brake calipers, check it out. The new dual pivots stop better. But they don't feel as good.

The Campy rear derailleurs are of the 'parallelogram' design. This was an older design that was the standard in Europe where derailleurs were developed. By the early '70s, Suntour had introduced the 'slant parallelogram' design which shifted better. That design continues to be used today and it is universally adopted. But while the slant-p design was better, don't think for a second that Campag derailleurs didn't shift well. They did. The Campag Rally derailleur is a slant-p design and it works flawlessly.

So the '70s Campag parts are a bit dated. They're heavy and perhaps not as efficient as today's top line components. But they were and still are tough and beautiful.

In the early '70s, the Japanese started their slow ascent to the top of the market. Early offerings were mostly copies of Campagnolo designs. Dura Ace parts have always been top quality. You simply can't go wrong with anything labeled Dura Ace. And by the early '80s, Sugino and Suntour also offered top quality parts. The Suntour Suprebe group is as smooth and tough as any.

Now while the BIG THREE all had top-end groups that were full of good components, there were lots of other companies who made top-notch equipment in the '60s, '70s and '80s.

The French made some very nice stuff. Stronglight cranks, while not as polished as the others, were well made and had smart designs. If you picked one up today, you'd want it. Malliard's top-end hubs were nice. And Ideale leather saddles were also quite nice. Stonglight was also famous for it's roller-bearing headsets. And the Huret company made some very nice derailleurs. Mavic has always made good rims and they also marketed a group of racing components in the '80s that we smart, slick and spendy. Greg Lemond made history on Mavic equipped bikes. If you had the full force of the Mavic company behind you, you were sitting pretty indeed. And no discussion of classic French parts is complete without mentioning a company called Specialties T.A. Their cranks are legendary. Joel Metz does a nice job of explaining them here: https://www.blackbirdsf.org/ta/

As we rolled through the '80s, Shimano made some good decisions and became the leader in the component world. The freehub design is simply better and it dominates Darwinianly. And Shimano's SIS indexed shifting was and is just better.

If you're a fan of vintage bike don't dispare. The best days may well be ahead of us. We Americans appreciate the old ways of doing things and there are signs that many of us are headed back to cycling's future. Brooks, the maker of leather saddles, has seens its sales increase every year for the past decade. And the big retaillers are making plans to bring lugged steel frames back to their catalogs. Even the 800 lb. gorilla of the bike business, Quality Bicycle Products (QBP) sees the value of vintage. Their Surly line of frames and hubs are very popular with the 'vintage' crowd.

And let me just close with a recommendatition. If you like vintage bicycles and you want to see what can be done to make bikes functional and beautiful at the same time, have a look at this new book:

https://www.vintagebicyclepress.com/goldenage.html

It's a bit spendy, so you might want to ask your local librarian to buy it for you.

But however you get it, inside you'll find a world of vintage bikes that even those of us who know about them have ever seen. These are the bicycles that the angels ride.

Cheers.

Matthew Grimm
Kogswell Cycles
https:\\kogswell.com

number6

Kogswell wrote a good synopsis. There is much else to know but seeking a top tier French and Italian bike of the period would provide two bikes of good service an be a pleasure to look at. American frame builders should not be ignored either, usually small builders with no national influence over component choices. Find an Eisentraut and be happy. There are many others as well, some old school builders are still at it, a new lugged frame today is very cool, just not cheap.

Regarding vintage track, here the modern stuff, like frames are new but not substantially better. Campagnolo (or Campagnolo form factor) dominated on the velodrome, only problem with old Campagnolo Pista is that the chainring bolt circle changed from 151mm to 144. If one has old equipment like I do, finding chainrings can get expensive. Handlebars were narrower, but Nitto makes some wide STEEL bars, give me the confidence of steel with bars and stem on the track. They don't creak. Some guys still use toe clips and straps, 30 years ago never saw someone pull out of a cleated pedal, can't say that with modern stuff.

be seeing you

peterbarson

I've said before, and I'll say it again, I love my steel bike, and I secretly fantasize about putting campy (or other elite) parts on it. It's nice to see I'm not alone in my attraction to the classics with a twist. let us know how your search goes.

Nightshade

During the 70's , 80's early 90's the race was for quality.
Now the race is about the race. A single minded race
to sell bikes that is all about quanity of numbers of bikes
that do not last.

If one statement can be made about the older classic steel
framed bikes it's...........
"For the most part they were made to well and last to long. "

Kogswell

I have some follow-up thoughts.

Vintage parts are fine and all. Especially the top-end stuff.

But today's parts are not bad.

Shimano and Shimano-esque hubs with sealed bearings are superior to most old hubs. The freehub design makes for a stronger wheel. I'm not going back to spin-on freewheels.

8 and 9 speed gearing is wonderful to use. It gives you lots of close-ratio gears that allow you to match your legs to the conditions (wind and hills). If you pair a 12-28 cassette to a 48/38/28 crank, you get very nice 'ranges' of gears. And that's just plain better than the old way.

Dual pivot brakes are a better design. We need a big company like Tektro to give us a super-high-quality dual pivot that has reach in the 48-70mm range so that we can run 45mm tires and fenders. But that will happen in the next few years.

Rims are better. Tires are way better. Good pedals are available. Headsets, like the Cane Creek S6 are outstandingly smooth and tough.

I think the trick is to integrate the best of today with the best of yesterday. And integration describes it perfectly. Our goal at Kogswell is to bring 'constructeur' quality and constructeur levels of integration to the masses. And why not? Isn't today's ordinary sedan light years ahead of the autos of the 1950s? Mechanically, yes. Stylistically, no. There's the goal. Modern quality and vintage style.

Don't be ashamed of your modern Giant or Trek or Specialized bike. It'll be vintage soon enough.

Matthew

peripatetic

Fantastic input, all, thank you very much. I am only a neophyte to biking in general. Aside from an atypical annual interest in the TdF, I had not ridden a bike since my last, in college, a Specialized Rockhopper Comp with that funky U-brake they used for a year or two in the late 80s. Loved that bike at the time, but it was stolen.

But I have steadily moved from a newfound interest in roadbikes, on to fixed gears and steel frames and now these older components. It seems that the high end stuff really is worth it.

max

PS Last night, I got to tinkering with my old Miyata, and was looking at the Suntour LePree RD (anyone know it? It's got two cogs on the bottom of the pulley, rather than one.) Besides the Sugino 170mm cranks, it's the only non-Shimano 105 component. Anyway, long story short, after consulting sheldon brown's pages, I realized that my chain was too long--by three links! I bought the bike used, obviously, and whoever had owned it before had put on an over-long chain! I can't wait to get back on this thing and go for a nice ride today.

Nightshade

A bicycle is one of mankind's most elegant inventions. Simple
but beautiful in that simplicity. A machine that can do so much
for so many so cheaply with little or no complaint.

And then some want to screw it up by adding a.......motor.

Kogswell

I think that the bicycle is the closest thing we have to flying on our own power. Snow skiing is kind of like flying. But with a bike you get to pedal yourself up the hill.

Everyone in my family rode motorcycles. When I was 14, I became a rebel and sold mine and got what is not a vintage racing bike. I like bicycles better.

But I'll take a motorcycle over a car any day.

Kogswell

Yes, the high end stuff is worth having.

Most all Dura Ace stuff, for example, is good and usable.

Berodesign

If you want cheap (reasonably cheap atleast) parts to a 70-80:ties bike, look at Shimano 600, either Arabesque or the 'ordinary' 600, 6200-series. They are good looking, good quality and easy to find NOS.

peripatetic

Thanks for that input. I don't object to the newer stuff, and I think a lot if it does work better, but I do have a problem with upgrading a bike that cost me 100 bucks with a bunch of new comps that will run me three times that much. I live in NYC, and not only is everything exceedingly expensive here, but also, shiny, newer stuff is just asking for a lift . And while I really can't afford or even justify trying to afford hundreds of dollars for Shimano Dura Ace or Campy whatever stuff brand new, I can, I think, with a bit of assiduousness, find some nice deals on older stuff. That's what people here do all the time in the way of bike frames. And I just think to myself, this 105 stuff really feels quite nice, and do I really want/need to go through the hassle of upgrading to STI? I have been looking to sell a Trek Aluminum bike in great shape (<500miles) for a little while, and last week, a woman came by with her friend to look at the bike for her friend. Her friend kept saying that she preferred the older, 80s stuff, and this woman, who was obviously some kind of well-heeled and well-off road rider, just kept complaining that it was heavy and only had 8 speeds on the rear (which meant a whole upgrade of the like-new componentry) and on and on. And as I listened to this discussion, I thought, why try and buy a bike like this for 300 bucks when what you really want is the new, 1200-dollar version of the bike? This woman was so disdainful of older bikes, too, and just seemed in general to lack any aesthetic sophistication.

Fine. So many riders out there can afford to be like this, to basically own a bicycle the way they own a car, as a disposable toy to be thrown away or re-sold to one of us poor saps who actually buys used. But at this point, I just wonder to myself why I should fork over that kind of dough. I'm not a racer, don't aspire to be one, and really just want to enhance the nice ride I've found. No matter what people want to say, carbon fiber doesn't feel the same, nor does titanium, nor does aluminum. And they all cost an arm and a leg.

Before I go and try and order a whole seven/eight-speed upgrade kit for my 80s road bike, and commit to putting in all the work to redishing the wheel, swapping out the hub to put brand new Dura Ace all over the thing, I think I'd rather try something a little more subtle and keeping in line with the bike itself.

And PS, having used the STI shifters on that Trek that I sold, I think they suck. There is no sense of connection or feeling between my body and the drivetrain, and every few rides, I had to oil the shifters because they'd just stop working. I genuinely have found friction downtube shifters to be easier and less problematic to use, and I feel a lot more attuned to the ride when I use them. (Do the newer systems even have friction modes anymore?)

There are many examples of things (including cars) that were longer-lasting and better engineered than things today. But that's a discussion for a whole other forum.

Nightshade

mate, PLEASE loose the green type. It's a b!tch to read with older eyes.

As to upgrading your classics. Why? Nobody says you have to and I find them
to very good as is in most cases. I don't need no stinking 8,9,10 speed to get
myself around as I find 10 or 12 (5 or 6 really) speeds to be plenty and my wheels
are way stronger than the newer deepdish 32 spoke stuff.

So as long as the bike you ride is fully functional why worry about what someone
else think's********************???

Enjoy it!!

peripatetic

Done. Thanks for putting in the work to read anyway.

No no no. I don't have any classics, component-wise, only some nice, older frames. I have just realized how much difference some well-made components can make, even if they're older. My longwinded diatribe above was simply in reference to the 'Why not just upgrade to newer stuff' reply that Matthew gave. I agree with you on the point of 6-speeds, etc., esp. because I'm mainly an about-town rider. My problem at this point is that my bike could use a little bit of an upgrade from some very old and not-well-cared for comps. (esp. the RD.) But having been riding beaters around for the most part lately, I've just been totally impressed at some of this older but nonetheless well-made stuff, and thought, hey, that might be a better way to go.

I'm going to look into Shimano 600 comps. Thanks for the advice and input from all.

Poguemahone

Six hundred is nice (esp Arabesque, just plain pretty), but if you're looking at a rear mech, you can't beat a Suntour cyclone... can be found cheap used, and very reliable.

Tip: If you like the Treks, try to hunt up a pre-1984 one. You may have to take a good look at the decal page on the vintage trek site to give you a leg up. As far as I can figure, all the pre-84 frames are excellent (at least every one that has passed thru my hands is) while the late ones are not as nice (tho still quite good in some cases)

peripatetic

Cool, thanks for the tips on the Cyclone and the Treks. I've suddenly found a whole new world .

halfspeed

Trek and Cyclone don't have the snob appeal of all-Italian rigs, but they are very nice so you can get some deals. I took my '77 TX500 on a 56 mile ride today. I paid $25 for it a couple of years ago. A nice powdercoat, and new rims and spokes and it's like new.

Lt.Gustl

I've found that I like the older bikes better because they can be found inexpensively and it is always an adventure, also they seem more comfortable, I like the french bikes because of the longer top tube and wheelbases, but I keep my eye out for just about anything.

OldsCOOL

Still thinking about that 460, eh??



Just another tip on that sweetie you've looked at......on the chain-side stay there is black factory tape (paint guard) with white "460" on it.


I'm still looking for that italian bike with campy parts laying around neglected. Some day I'll find one and love it back to stock condition but for now the Trek absolutely spins my crank. Just love the feel of it.

The ZebraKenko should be on the road this week and will be loaned to a friend that is considering (and needing) a bike for commuting/training. I would not be in the least ashamed to lend this one out due to the quality components of the era. Ten bucks.....wow.

Berodesign

Uhh, 600 is NOT new stuff You can find a complete group for 100 bucks, 6 speed, downtube friction and so on.

peripatetic

Thanks.

I got that 600 was the older stuff. I think I was referring to the specific mention of newer stuff, see Kogswell's second post above. Maybe he thought I was looking to totally outfit an older bike up to newer standards.

Been looking at the 600 stuff, as well as Campy. Thanks for the suggestions, all,

max

peterbarson

I too love my friction shifter, (mines on the stem though) and If the newer fancier systems don't come with friction modes, I won't switch.

Nightshade

One of the things I like about cycling is that it's a lot like cooking. Mix it anyway you want, it
only counts is if you like the end result. No right , no wrong, just what YOU like.

toomanybikes

I had three bikes with indexed shifting:

My MTB, a hardtail Trek with solid fork. Nice bike but I hated the straight bars and the twist grips. I converted that bike to a double chainring set-up with moustache bars and bar-end friction shifts. I now will take that bike out for pleasure rides which never happened before.

My CX bike is a Rocky Mountain Rail. I like this bike a lot in spite of it's having an Aluminum frame. The bike was factory specced with STI brifters and a triple chainring set-up. I take this bike with me when I travel and so have left the triple on it. I have taken the left hand brifter off and replaced with a brake lever and a bar-end shifter on the left for controlling the front. Better than it has ever been.

My third indexed bike is a Campy 10 which I will leave that way - cause it's campy and sometimes it's neat - but I will never buy another bike with indexed shifting.

luker

I have one of everything but twist shifters. Confusion reigns for the first mile or so while I'm trying to recalibrate my shifting skills.

When the terrain's not too tough, and the miles are longer, I think I prefer downtube shifters, but when the pace is high and your lungs are busting through the top of your skull, there's just nothing like brifters for catching another gear. I have about a million miles on various shimano brifters, but I think that the campy 10 stuff has a little edge for useability.