Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Classic & Vintage
Reload this Page >

Asymmetrical Woes and the Sugino AT

Classic & Vintage This forum is to discuss the many aspects of classic and vintage bicycles, including musclebikes, lightweights, middleweights, hi-wheelers, bone-shakers, safety bikes and much more.

Asymmetrical Woes and the Sugino AT

Old 03-19-19, 06:41 PM
  #1  
SamSpade1941 
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
SamSpade1941's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Posts: 461
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 296 Post(s)
Asymmetrical Woes and the Sugino AT

I am in the process of preparing to build up my Grand Jubile with parts of my choosing which is more or less related to what is on hand in my bin.,,,

I opted to use this Sugino AT crank .. I located some NOS Tange Swiss bottom bracket cups and I have a Nervar 126mm Asymmetrical spindle unfortunately the Nervar is ISO and not JIS .... I discovered from talking with Yellow Jersey about their Tange sealed cartridge bottom brackets that I can't use a newer sealed cartridge BB because the all of the new ones are symmetrical. So the question I have is what are my options aside from finding a Sugino MT-68 spindle ?

Obligatory Sugino AT crankset photo .....

SamSpade1941 is offline  
Old 03-19-19, 07:30 PM
  #2  
ThermionicScott 
hungry
 
ThermionicScott's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: CID
Posts: 17,925

Bikes: 1991 Bianchi Eros, 1964 Armstrong, 1988 Diamondback Ascent, 1988 Bianchi Premio, 1987 Bianchi Sport SX, 1980s Raleigh mixte (hers)

Mentioned: 63 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1807 Post(s)
The original spindle was only 119mm long, just with an 8mm offset. If you buy a regular 122mm cartridge bottom bracket and use a 2mm spacer on the drive-side, that should do it.
__________________
Originally Posted by chandltp View Post
There's no such thing as too far.. just lack of time
Originally Posted by noglider
People in this forum are not typical.
RUSA #7498
ThermionicScott is offline  
Old 03-19-19, 07:50 PM
  #3  
SamSpade1941 
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
SamSpade1941's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Posts: 461
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 296 Post(s)
My understanding is the triple used a longer 127.5 spindle the double used a shorter spindle ...


of course i could be wrong but thats what I’ve read elsewhere

Last edited by SamSpade1941; 03-19-19 at 08:05 PM.
SamSpade1941 is offline  
Old 03-19-19, 08:22 PM
  #4  
ThermionicScott 
hungry
 
ThermionicScott's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: CID
Posts: 17,925

Bikes: 1991 Bianchi Eros, 1964 Armstrong, 1988 Diamondback Ascent, 1988 Bianchi Premio, 1987 Bianchi Sport SX, 1980s Raleigh mixte (hers)

Mentioned: 63 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1807 Post(s)
Originally Posted by SamSpade1941 View Post
My understanding is the triple used a longer 127.5 spindle the double used a shorter spindle ...

of course i could be wrong but thats what I’ve read elsewhere

Yeah, all I know is what I've read online.

A couple references say that the triple used a 29.5-52-37.5 spindle (119mm). You would need a 127mm symmetric spindle in order to get enough clearance for the chainrings.

VeloBase.com - Component: Sugino AT
__________________
Originally Posted by chandltp View Post
There's no such thing as too far.. just lack of time
Originally Posted by noglider
People in this forum are not typical.
RUSA #7498
ThermionicScott is offline  
Old 03-19-19, 08:28 PM
  #5  
SamSpade1941 
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
SamSpade1941's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Posts: 461
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 296 Post(s)
Originally Posted by ThermionicScott View Post

Yeah, all I know is what I've read online.

A couple references say that the triple used a 29.5-52-37.5 spindle (119mm). You would need a 127mm symmetric spindle in order to get enough clearance for the chainrings.

VeloBase.com - Component: Sugino AT

OK that makes sense , so I need to find a 119 mm asymmetric spindle .... or order a tange sealed cartridge bottom bracket with removable cups in a 122 mm ... to get clearance ...
SamSpade1941 is offline  
Old 03-19-19, 08:34 PM
  #6  
steelbikeguy
Senior Member
 
steelbikeguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Peoria, IL
Posts: 1,588
Mentioned: 48 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 500 Post(s)
I've got two bikes with the AT cranks; one set up as a triple and one as a double. Both use a 127.5mm Shimano cartridge with a couple mm of spacers under the right cup. Works for me.

pics, just for fun...





Steve in Peoria
steelbikeguy is offline  
Old 03-19-19, 09:21 PM
  #7  
SamSpade1941 
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
SamSpade1941's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Posts: 461
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 296 Post(s)
I was just in the garage looking and it appears that I have a Shimano 122.5 spindle so it looks like I am good to go when I get ready to rebuild the Grand Jubile ..


I appreciate everyone's help and advice ...
SamSpade1941 is offline  
Old 03-20-19, 12:23 AM
  #8  
Dfrost 
Senior Member
 
Dfrost's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Pacific Northwest
Posts: 1,330

Bikes: 87 Marinoni SLX Sports Tourer, 79 Miyata 912 by Gugificazione

Mentioned: 112 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 261 Post(s)
Originally Posted by steelbikeguy View Post
I've got two bikes with the AT cranks; one set up as a triple and one as a double. Both use a 127.5mm Shimano cartridge with a couple mm of spacers under the right cup. Works for me.

Steve in Peoria
Works for me also, except I splurged on the 127mm SKF sealed BB with about 5mm of DS spacers for my triple. Chain line came out perfectly.

Dfrost is offline  
Old 03-20-19, 07:39 AM
  #9  
Barrettscv 
Have bike, will travel
 
Barrettscv's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Lake Geneva, WI
Posts: 11,954

Bikes: Ridley Helium SLX, Canyon Endurance SL, De Rosa Professional, Eddy Merckx Corsa Extra, Schwinn Paramount (1 painted, 1 chrome), Peugeot PX10, Serotta Nova X, Simoncini Cyclocross Special, Raleigh Roker, Pedal Force CG2 and CX2

Mentioned: 38 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 695 Post(s)
Where are people sourcing spacers the fit under a Shimano British UN 55 bottom bracket?
Barrettscv is offline  
Old 03-20-19, 07:48 AM
  #10  
SamSpade1941 
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
SamSpade1941's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Posts: 461
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 296 Post(s)
Originally Posted by Barrettscv View Post
Where are people sourcing spacers the fit under a Shimano British UN 55 bottom bracket?

i just go to the bike store ..
SamSpade1941 is offline  
Old 03-20-19, 07:57 AM
  #11  
hujev
I'm one of the freaks.
 
hujev's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Lake Superior, sometimes the UP, periodically leaves/returns to Alaska for good.
Posts: 121

Bikes: 84 Trek 830, 83 cannondale ST-500, Stumpjumpers: 82 tig'd; 82 lug'd; 84; 83 Univega Gran Turismo, 85 Woodrup Giro Touring, 89 Trek 420, 16 Woodrup touring, Stanforth: 17 Kibo & 19 Skyelander on order, 93 Longstaff trike...

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
I've got one bike with an AT and another with a GT, both with my favourite (besides Phil) BBs, the Tange LN-3922 (sym., and way better than the Shimanos). I think I've got spacers on both. I've never felt particularly bent by the position of crankarms a few mm this or that way off centre.

Since others have, here's my chance to post pix, because it's nice to look at bikes, not because there's any possibility of seeing related details (all the details you'd ever want on them are in the links):

1983 Univega Gran Turismo, GT



2016 Stanforth Kibo, AT


By the way, that's the same Brook flyer on both - now on my recently finished 2016 Woodrup,touring bike. The Univega now has a black flyer (and tape - looks better with silver & grey), and the Kibo a green B17 special.

Last edited by hujev; 03-20-19 at 08:05 AM. Reason: more detailed details
hujev is offline  
Old 03-20-19, 08:11 AM
  #12  
ThermionicScott 
hungry
 
ThermionicScott's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: CID
Posts: 17,925

Bikes: 1991 Bianchi Eros, 1964 Armstrong, 1988 Diamondback Ascent, 1988 Bianchi Premio, 1987 Bianchi Sport SX, 1980s Raleigh mixte (hers)

Mentioned: 63 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1807 Post(s)
Originally Posted by Barrettscv View Post
Where are people sourcing spacers the fit under a Shimano British UN 55 bottom bracket?
Wheels Mfg makes these: https://www.universalcycles.com/shop...ls.php?id=2241 You could probably use about anything that has a ~35mm ID, though.

I should add: when using a bunch of spacers on a cartridge bottom bracket to simulate an asymmetrical spindle, you need to make sure the left cup does NOT have a lip/ledge. A ledge can stop the left-side cup from going far enough inside the bottom bracket shell to join up with and support the cartridge unit.

Here's a picture example of how far the left-side cup can go into the frame to support that bottom bracket.
__________________
Originally Posted by chandltp View Post
There's no such thing as too far.. just lack of time
Originally Posted by noglider
People in this forum are not typical.
RUSA #7498

Last edited by ThermionicScott; 03-20-19 at 08:18 AM.
ThermionicScott is offline  
Old 03-20-19, 10:26 AM
  #13  
tricky 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Upper Left, USA
Posts: 879
Mentioned: 17 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 176 Post(s)
Originally Posted by ThermionicScott View Post
Wheels Mfg makes these: https://www.universalcycles.com/shop...ls.php?id=2241 You could probably use about anything that has a ~35mm ID, though.

I should add: when using a bunch of spacers on a cartridge bottom bracket to simulate an asymmetrical spindle, you need to make sure the left cup does NOT have a lip/ledge. A ledge can stop the left-side cup from going far enough inside the bottom bracket shell to join up with and support the cartridge unit.

Here's a picture example of how far the left-side cup can go into the frame to support that bottom bracket.
Whoa, that's impressive. I had no idea that kind of setup would work. I guess I can't think of a reason why not. Any issues with removal, creaking, etc running it that deep inside the shell?
tricky is offline  
Old 03-20-19, 10:47 AM
  #14  
ThermionicScott 
hungry
 
ThermionicScott's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: CID
Posts: 17,925

Bikes: 1991 Bianchi Eros, 1964 Armstrong, 1988 Diamondback Ascent, 1988 Bianchi Premio, 1987 Bianchi Sport SX, 1980s Raleigh mixte (hers)

Mentioned: 63 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1807 Post(s)
Originally Posted by tricky View Post
Whoa, that's impressive. I had no idea that kind of setup would work. I guess I can't think of a reason why not. Any issues with removal, creaking, etc running it that deep inside the shell?
Nope, no issues!

On the flip side, if I had used a regular bottom bracket cup with a ledge on this project, the left side of the bottom bracket cartridge would be totally unsupported, and I could see the bottom bracket eventually loosening up and/or creaking.
__________________
Originally Posted by chandltp View Post
There's no such thing as too far.. just lack of time
Originally Posted by noglider
People in this forum are not typical.
RUSA #7498
ThermionicScott is offline  
Old 03-20-19, 10:52 AM
  #15  
Barrettscv 
Have bike, will travel
 
Barrettscv's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Lake Geneva, WI
Posts: 11,954

Bikes: Ridley Helium SLX, Canyon Endurance SL, De Rosa Professional, Eddy Merckx Corsa Extra, Schwinn Paramount (1 painted, 1 chrome), Peugeot PX10, Serotta Nova X, Simoncini Cyclocross Special, Raleigh Roker, Pedal Force CG2 and CX2

Mentioned: 38 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 695 Post(s)
Originally Posted by SamSpade1941 View Post
i just go to the bike store ..
I would call first, save yourself from a wasted trip.
Barrettscv is offline  
Old 03-20-19, 10:55 AM
  #16  
SamSpade1941 
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
SamSpade1941's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Posts: 461
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 296 Post(s)
Originally Posted by Barrettscv View Post
I would call first, save yourself from a wasted trip.

its never a wasted trip.. I get to chat with really nice people
SamSpade1941 is offline  
Old 03-20-19, 10:57 AM
  #17  
Slightspeed
Senior Member
 
Slightspeed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 1,297

Bikes: 1964 Legnano Roma, 1973 Raleigh Super Course, 1978 Raleigh Super Course, 1978 Peugeot PR10, 2002 Specialized Allez, 2007 Specialized Roubaix, 2013 Culprit Croz Blade

Mentioned: 40 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 402 Post(s)
Originally Posted by Barrettscv View Post
Where are people sourcing spacers the fit under a Shimano British UN 55 bottom bracket?
A modern 1.37 i.d. cassette spacer works fine, and most shops should have them in various thickness. I used two, with a 127mm spindle to fit an AT triple on my '73 Super Course. One spacer might gave been enough, but I didn't want to do it twice. My bike has an indent on the driveside chainstay for crank clearance. I'm also working on a '78 SC with straight chainstay, and it is really a tight fit. I've only been able to fit an SR Sakae double. The triple either hit the frame, or the front derailleur wouldn't reach out far enough to shift the big ring, depending on the spindle length. Both if my SCs were frames without cranks when I got them, so it has been an improv.

Silver spacers (two) on my Super Course.
Slightspeed is offline  
Old 03-20-19, 11:22 AM
  #18  
Hobbiano
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Baton Rouge La
Posts: 443
Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 125 Post(s)
I bought a ten pack of 1mm BB spacers here. I think its cheaper than getting them directly from Wheels mfg.
https://www.amazon.com/Wheels-Manufa.../dp/B0025UINFC
Hobbiano is offline  
Old 03-20-19, 11:25 AM
  #19  
Hobbiano
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Baton Rouge La
Posts: 443
Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 125 Post(s)
They also have other thicknesses.
Hobbiano is offline  
Old 03-20-19, 02:47 PM
  #20  
dddd
Ride, Wrench, Swap, Race
 
dddd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Northern California
Posts: 6,370

Bikes: Cheltenham-Pederson racer, Boulder F/S Paris-Roubaix, Varsity racer, '52 Christophe, '62 Continental, '92 Merckx, '75 Limongi, '76 Presto, '72 Gitane SC, '71 Schwinn SS, etc.

Mentioned: 66 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 470 Post(s)
They tout those as freewheel spacers, but using aluminum for a freewheel spacer too often results in a very uneven seating of the freewheel body on the hubshell as the soft spacers tend to squeeze out asymmetrically or eccentrically from between the hub and freewheel. A wobbling freewheel is then the result.

I've even seen the alloy spacers split and move out of place when securely tightened under a fixed cup flange, and I've also seen where someone used a plastic spacer under the fixed cup.

Steel is real.
dddd is offline  
Old 03-20-19, 07:12 PM
  #21  
Slightspeed
Senior Member
 
Slightspeed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 1,297

Bikes: 1964 Legnano Roma, 1973 Raleigh Super Course, 1978 Raleigh Super Course, 1978 Peugeot PR10, 2002 Specialized Allez, 2007 Specialized Roubaix, 2013 Culprit Croz Blade

Mentioned: 40 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 402 Post(s)
Originally Posted by dddd View Post
They tout those as freewheel spacers, but using aluminum for a freewheel spacer too often results in a very uneven seating of the freewheel body on the hubshell as the soft spacers tend to squeeze out asymmetrically or eccentrically from between the hub and freewheel. A wobbling freewheel is then the result.

I've even seen the alloy spacers split and move out of place when securely tightened under a fixed cup flange, and I've also seen where someone used a plastic spacer under the fixed cup.

Steel is real.
Not sure if the spacers on the green SC above are steel or aluminum (I seem to remember that they are zinc plated steel) but I've done over 2500 miles on the set-up with no issues, fingers crossed. Its the first bike I ever built. So far so good. I have one on the freewheel too, to keep the derailleur from ticking the spokes.
Slightspeed is offline  
Old 03-20-19, 07:32 PM
  #22  
79pmooney
A Roadie Forever
 
79pmooney's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 6,569

Bikes: (2) ti TiCycles, 2007 w/ triple and 2011 fixed, 1979 Peter Mooney, ~1983 Trek 420 now fixed and ~1973 Raleigh Carlton Competition gravel grinder

Mentioned: 88 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1502 Post(s)
I hate symmetric BBs for the simple reason that my knees care far more about me getting my feet close together than any part of me noticing the asymmetry. For me, the ideal bike has perfest to a touch less than spec right-side chainline, a right crank that almost hits the chain in big-small and a left crank that just misses the chainstay.

The solution I love is Phil Wood BBs. Only have one on one bike but getting exactly the asymmetry and length I want is so cool. Now that one was purchased from PW, but when I told the engineer the length and asymmetry, he said he a a symmetrical one in stock that I could dial in that amount of asymmetry.

My best two bikes for my knees are both fix gears because I got the Q-factor so low. And because knee repair is so expensive and by comparison, Phil Wood BBs so cheap, I'll be buying more. (The other fix gear has a Miche/Sugino 75 track setup.)

Ben
79pmooney is offline  

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.