Can someone please explain why tubulars?
03-23-19, 08:50 PM
#51
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Still a die-hard advocate for tubulars. Much easier to deal with when you get a puncture on the road. Love the way they look and handle. And I rarely patch one. Normally, by the time I finally get a puncture the tread is so worn down that I just throw the tire out. I think I've patched one (amazed myself that I still remembered how) in the past 8-10 years.
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03-23-19, 09:01 PM
#52
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1) FYI. Rims do not need to be cleaned of old glue every time you glue or reglue a tire. It's a huge hassle and pointless, and a major reason that many folks get turned off of tubulars. Do however clean the old dried up vintage glue on your newly acquired vintage rims, the first time, once. There are many methods. Search the archives. If it's really dry and crispy, a wire brush wheel is fast. You can also use a heat gun, and scrape it off like paint. Or use solvent. Acetone or mineral spirits typically. One or the other can work better depending on the original glue. Solvent is messy. Lastly paint stripper can work. Do that outside for sure, with a respirator.
03-23-19, 10:56 PM
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I road see ups in the 80s. It was about being lite and fast. Now the glue etc seems like a hassle. The argument I have heard that in a race and you blow out at speed, the tire is still glued . So you can steer and brake. So safety in extreme situation seems like the old sew ups have the edge...
Last edited by rossiny; 03-24-19 at 01:50 AM.
03-24-19, 01:26 AM
#54
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Here's a 700 C x 28 mm tubular tire by Tufo for just over $50 each.
IIRC, I've seen them in 700 C X 32 mm, too, somewhere. Maybe it was Schwalbe or Vittoria???
ETA - Vittoria Corsa Control and the Schwalbe G-ONE Speed come in 30 mm width, for sure. Cyclocross tires come even wider.
IIRC, I've seen them in 700 C X 32 mm, too, somewhere. Maybe it was Schwalbe or Vittoria???
ETA - Vittoria Corsa Control and the Schwalbe G-ONE Speed come in 30 mm width, for sure. Cyclocross tires come even wider.
Last edited by Bad Lag; 03-24-19 at 01:35 AM.
03-24-19, 04:25 AM
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03-24-19, 07:11 AM
#56
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This is my first time mounting tubulars. How much glue can remain? This is what my rims currently look like. Acetone and mineral spirits have not taken much of the flue off. I have scraped some off and used a wire brush given to me by my LBS. It took a little of the anodize off the rims.
Anodizing is just there for color. You didn't get close to where the wire wheel was gouging metal.
03-24-19, 08:52 AM
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Reduced weight - less rotating mass on the largest diameter "flywheel" - and there are two on every bicycle.
The reduced weight comes from 1. No need for 4 steel hoops in the tires and their inertia 2. No need for 4 flanges on the rims and their inertia 3. The tires tended toward the thin and light end of the spectrum.
The reduced weight comes from 1. No need for 4 steel hoops in the tires and their inertia 2. No need for 4 flanges on the rims and their inertia 3. The tires tended toward the thin and light end of the spectrum.
"In summary, wheels account for almost 10% of the total power required to race your bike and the dominant factor in wheel performance is aerodynamics. Wheel mass is a second order effect (nearly 10 times less significant) and wheel inertia is a third order effect (nearly 100 times less significant)."
What isn't analyzied is the effect of tires - size, air pressure, suppleness. Empirical data shows this to be possibly more important than the other factors. BITD everyone "knew" that silk tires rolled better than cotton or the synthetics of the time. Anyone who has handled various tubulars from the time will tell you the silk casings were definitely felt more supple.
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Last edited by gugie; 03-24-19 at 08:58 AM.
03-24-19, 09:02 AM
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tubular/clincher/tubeless
tubulars are cool, clinchers are easy, tubeless are odd.
carbon/aluminum/steel/Ti
carbon is fun, aluminum is maligned, steel is real, and Ti is "huh?
blonde/redhead/brunette/raven
I'm not even going there, but I like the otter.
sirloin/T-bone/NY strip/filet
No idea.
all good.
tubulars are cool, clinchers are easy, tubeless are odd.
carbon/aluminum/steel/Ti
carbon is fun, aluminum is maligned, steel is real, and Ti is "huh?
blonde/redhead/brunette/raven
I'm not even going there, but I like the otter.
sirloin/T-bone/NY strip/filet
No idea.
all good.
Last edited by RobbieTunes; 03-24-19 at 09:08 AM.
03-24-19, 09:04 AM
#59
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Thank you for the responses. If this is too much of a thread drift, I can start another thread. I have two more questions. Can I use rim tape with these instead of glue? The videos on youtube show that it is so much easier than glue, but they are all using tape on carbon rims. Second, I cannot get the tire onto the rim. Again, the youtube videos show a much easier tire mounting than I have experienced. I am not even close to getting the tire on the rim for stretching. I am using NOS Clement Scatto tires and Matrix ISO rims (stock on Trek 760). Do I step on the tire to stretch it? Some of the videos show that, but just as many say not to stretch the tire that way.
This is about as close as I can get to getting the tire on the rim. With pressure, I can get it another half inch or so on either side. I had to let go to take the picture.
This is about as close as I can get to getting the tire on the rim. With pressure, I can get it another half inch or so on either side. I had to let go to take the picture.
Last edited by Shrevvy; 03-24-19 at 09:10 AM.
03-24-19, 09:07 AM
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Thank you for the responses. If this is too much of a thread drift, I can start another thread. I have two more questions. Can I use rim tape with these instead of glue? The videos on youtube show that it is so much easier than glue, but they are all using tape on carbon rims. Second, I cannot get the tire onto the rim. Again, the youtube videos show a much easier tire mounting than I have experienced. I am not even close to getting the tire on the rim for stretching. I am using NOS Clement Scatto tires and Matrix ISO rims (stock on Trek 760). Do I step on the tire to stretch it? Some of the videos show that, but just as many say not to stretch the tire that way.
2-In my experience, stretching the tire on the rim works best. With tape, you can do that with the tape on, and I do, so no pre-stretching.
03-24-19, 09:12 AM
#61
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Thanks Robbie. I edited my post with a pic. I just can't get the tire on the rim. I'm obviously doing something wrong.
03-24-19, 10:28 AM
#62
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Are you using the floor to push against?
Hold the wheel in front of you upright and against your knees. Valve hole at the top. Put on the tire starting at the top with the valve. Grip the tire with one hand on each side, pushing hard to stretch the tire as you work your way down the rim. When you get almost to the floor, pick up the wheel/tire and flip over the last bit.
It may be partly because they are NOS tires, and have stiffened up over time. It should be noted that riding NOS tires is somewhat of a risk, especially if they are cotton.
WRT the leftover glue on the rim, i'd clean it off myself, probably using stripper or a heat gun or a brass wheel on a drill or grinder, because I'm lazy. It doesn't matter if you scratch the anodizing on the inside. It's probably OK as is, but I like to do the best possible job on rim gluing. So it's partly OCD on my part, and partly that I was a mechanic for a long time and had to be responsible for gluing peoples tires on in a way where there was no chance they would come off...
That said, I'm 100% against the idea of cleaning up old glue every time you glue. It's a waste of time. I've done it once in decades of riding sew ups. At the same time mixing brands of glue introduces uncertainties. It won't kill you to do it once. The old red Clement glue hasn't been made in 20 years at least.
Hold the wheel in front of you upright and against your knees. Valve hole at the top. Put on the tire starting at the top with the valve. Grip the tire with one hand on each side, pushing hard to stretch the tire as you work your way down the rim. When you get almost to the floor, pick up the wheel/tire and flip over the last bit.
It may be partly because they are NOS tires, and have stiffened up over time. It should be noted that riding NOS tires is somewhat of a risk, especially if they are cotton.
WRT the leftover glue on the rim, i'd clean it off myself, probably using stripper or a heat gun or a brass wheel on a drill or grinder, because I'm lazy. It doesn't matter if you scratch the anodizing on the inside. It's probably OK as is, but I like to do the best possible job on rim gluing. So it's partly OCD on my part, and partly that I was a mechanic for a long time and had to be responsible for gluing peoples tires on in a way where there was no chance they would come off...
That said, I'm 100% against the idea of cleaning up old glue every time you glue. It's a waste of time. I've done it once in decades of riding sew ups. At the same time mixing brands of glue introduces uncertainties. It won't kill you to do it once. The old red Clement glue hasn't been made in 20 years at least.
03-24-19, 10:33 AM
#63
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Stop watching videos. Find someone to show you how. If you try to do this as a solo effort you aren't getting there. If you really don't know one soul who rides tubulars you're better off on clinchers.
The thinnest tape you will find adds to rim diameter. The tack of the tape is going to make it much harder (impossible) to stretch the tire. Tire simply has to move along rim as it stretches. If tire can't move it is going to be lumpy. Tape is not simpler, it is a whole new set of problems. You will be guided through those problems by those not able to do the job normally.
It is all easy. If it is hard at any step along the way it is not working.
Tubulars over intertoobs is blind leading blind. Voices on intertoobs who know absolutely nothing have same weight as those who can do it in their sleep. Those who know nothing never hesitate to contribute to discussion. Echo chamber for fearmongering.
The thinnest tape you will find adds to rim diameter. The tack of the tape is going to make it much harder (impossible) to stretch the tire. Tire simply has to move along rim as it stretches. If tire can't move it is going to be lumpy. Tape is not simpler, it is a whole new set of problems. You will be guided through those problems by those not able to do the job normally.
It is all easy. If it is hard at any step along the way it is not working.
Tubulars over intertoobs is blind leading blind. Voices on intertoobs who know absolutely nothing have same weight as those who can do it in their sleep. Those who know nothing never hesitate to contribute to discussion. Echo chamber for fearmongering.
03-24-19, 11:15 AM
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The thinnest tape you will find adds to rim diameter. The tack of the tape is going to make it much harder (impossible) to stretch the tire. Tire simply has to move along rim as it stretches. If tire can't move it is going to be lumpy. Tape is not simpler, it is a whole new set of problems.
You don't peel off both sides of the tape; you mount one side of the tape to the rim, keeping the plastic between the tire and the tape. Then you stretch-mount the tire, and can move it and center it and twist it into spaghetti if you want, but it's not stuck to the rim at all. Once you have it centered and right, valve lined up perfectly, etc, you inflate it a bit more, then slowly pull the remaining plastic film off. It comes out just fine. Even then you can adjust it.
A sixth grader can do it in 10 minutes. No set of problems, no mess, no time wasted. No tubasti on your khakis.
Re: that pic of the tire that needs a LOT of stretching. Keep at it. That looks like a real mo-fo, and I'm not sure why. What the other guy said works pretty well. You need to be able to stretch along the entire circumference of the tire, it appears, to gain the elasticity you need. And I'm done with the big words.
Last edited by RobbieTunes; 03-24-19 at 11:25 AM.
03-24-19, 11:21 AM
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I concur with 63rickert. Plenty here have best tried to explain the OP but for whatever reason its clear he hasn't grasp nor possibly read those replies. Wish to be there and really guide him but that's obviously not going happen.
With that, its in the best interest for this particular poster and safety in going directly to a competent bike shop for installation and learning / observation lesson. And as bonus by paying the small price to the shop, may save himself potential damage to a tire or rim.
Hopefully the OP won't give up his attempt for tubulars but, chances are good should 'stick' to clinchers.
With that, its in the best interest for this particular poster and safety in going directly to a competent bike shop for installation and learning / observation lesson. And as bonus by paying the small price to the shop, may save himself potential damage to a tire or rim.
Hopefully the OP won't give up his attempt for tubulars but, chances are good should 'stick' to clinchers.
03-24-19, 11:34 AM
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Thank you for the responses. If this is too much of a thread drift, I can start another thread. I have two more questions. Can I use rim tape with these instead of glue? The videos on youtube show that it is so much easier than glue, but they are all using tape on carbon rims. Second, I cannot get the tire onto the rim. Again, the youtube videos show a much easier tire mounting than I have experienced. I am not even close to getting the tire on the rim for stretching. I am using NOS Clement Scatto tires and Matrix ISO rims (stock on Trek 760). Do I step on the tire to stretch it? Some of the videos show that, but just as many say not to stretch the tire that way.
This is about as close as I can get to getting the tire on the rim. With pressure, I can get it another half inch or so on either side. I had to let go to take the picture.
This is about as close as I can get to getting the tire on the rim. With pressure, I can get it another half inch or so on either side. I had to let go to take the picture.
I had mentioned to heed caution using rim tape with some tubulars.
Personally and admit to using old and some NOS old tubulars. Many disagree but that aside, these old tires should be pre stretched or stored on any spare rim.
Most of the raw rubber comes from Thailand and makers mix their concotion to whatever degree they want. Meaning, they differ from brand, make and even sometimes the batch or age. After its made, it can be still curing to over aged disintegrate. But even short term can bring surprised issues. Example: I had a brand new pair of Challenge Vulcanos and one self disintegrate after only seven months in normal storage -NEVER got to usage. Waste of purchase and absolute junk.
------
Also mentioned about the inability to just stretch on to a rim. You should get it stretched only at the far end, leaving 1/3 width off the rim edge and --roll-- the remaining on. Perhaps better explained as half partially flipped. Seems odd but I'm trying to explain, its NOT like pulling all mighty as a rubber band stretch.
------
One last remark and back to tubular tape vs glue. If you decide on tape DO thoroughly pre clean any old glue residue plus final wipe with acetone.
Last edited by crank_addict; 03-24-19 at 11:55 AM.
03-24-19, 12:13 PM
#67
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I’m not the original poster, but have hijacked this thread somewhat. Sorry.
Boulder Bicycle ran a sale on these NOS Clement tires (Boulder link). They were priced close to a lower end modern tubular. I figured they would be good to experiment. Maybe that was wrong. Boulder says they ride them, but I was also aware of the drawbacks of an older tire (other than maybe it stiffening up over time). I’ll order something new to try.
No one I know rides tubular. There is not much C&v here. I live in a town of 10,000 in rural Ohio. Closest LBS is a couple towns over. The Serotta I bought last year had older tubulars that rode really well. I had the LBS mount new Veloflex tubulars, but it was not cheap and their hours are not always convienent for me. I’d like to learn to do it myself.
Yes, I pushed against the floor and tried to use my body weight to stretch the tire as well. The videos I saw with rim tape were pretty slick. Like Robbie mentioned, they started to pull the top plastic of the tape off near the stem leaving “tabs” of the plastic exposed on each side of the stem. Mount the tire on the rim and then pull the plastic off the top of the tape from underneath the tire. Seemed a lot easier than glue.
Boulder Bicycle ran a sale on these NOS Clement tires (Boulder link). They were priced close to a lower end modern tubular. I figured they would be good to experiment. Maybe that was wrong. Boulder says they ride them, but I was also aware of the drawbacks of an older tire (other than maybe it stiffening up over time). I’ll order something new to try.
No one I know rides tubular. There is not much C&v here. I live in a town of 10,000 in rural Ohio. Closest LBS is a couple towns over. The Serotta I bought last year had older tubulars that rode really well. I had the LBS mount new Veloflex tubulars, but it was not cheap and their hours are not always convienent for me. I’d like to learn to do it myself.
Yes, I pushed against the floor and tried to use my body weight to stretch the tire as well. The videos I saw with rim tape were pretty slick. Like Robbie mentioned, they started to pull the top plastic of the tape off near the stem leaving “tabs” of the plastic exposed on each side of the stem. Mount the tire on the rim and then pull the plastic off the top of the tape from underneath the tire. Seemed a lot easier than glue.
03-24-19, 12:51 PM
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Hi Shrevvy. Don't be sorry and I absolutely get your reasoning by having no LBS to quite assist you.
You're not alone in these regards.
It would be convenient learning from a reputable and knowledgeable shop but for some its simply not available. The tendancy today is to rely on YouTube but again... another potential trap of steering one to disaster.
Other gambles with shops. I've personally witnessed the WORST of a 'pro' shop basterize a friends vintage Gitane TdF plus moronic tubular tire install. Incredibly insulting and more than I can bother writing of. That's not all... I've witnessed a second shop major screw up with new tire and rim 700c 'clincher' for another friend.
And, you just might have a difficult NEW tubular. All sorts of bizarre reasons why 20+ year NOS tires exist. If it becomes over challenging to install at your own home shop- get rid of them and try another.
Another way to look at it. Imagine if you had to deal with a change on the road. Prep fit and make sure your spare can easily be installed.
Takes a bit of patience and perhaps methodical approach vs gorilla handling. I don't use gloves and have even installed -no mess- fresh glued tubulars in the comforts of the living room. Lol
Ps. New tubulars that are a crapshoot. Normally I don't shout out nor online report but recently purchased a new pair of Taiwan made Vittoria CX from a shop. Opened the package in front of the owner and noted the top carcass delaminated on both tubulars. Garbage.
You're not alone in these regards.
It would be convenient learning from a reputable and knowledgeable shop but for some its simply not available. The tendancy today is to rely on YouTube but again... another potential trap of steering one to disaster.
Other gambles with shops. I've personally witnessed the WORST of a 'pro' shop basterize a friends vintage Gitane TdF plus moronic tubular tire install. Incredibly insulting and more than I can bother writing of. That's not all... I've witnessed a second shop major screw up with new tire and rim 700c 'clincher' for another friend.
And, you just might have a difficult NEW tubular. All sorts of bizarre reasons why 20+ year NOS tires exist. If it becomes over challenging to install at your own home shop- get rid of them and try another.
Another way to look at it. Imagine if you had to deal with a change on the road. Prep fit and make sure your spare can easily be installed.
Takes a bit of patience and perhaps methodical approach vs gorilla handling. I don't use gloves and have even installed -no mess- fresh glued tubulars in the comforts of the living room. Lol
Ps. New tubulars that are a crapshoot. Normally I don't shout out nor online report but recently purchased a new pair of Taiwan made Vittoria CX from a shop. Opened the package in front of the owner and noted the top carcass delaminated on both tubulars. Garbage.
Last edited by crank_addict; 03-24-19 at 01:01 PM.
03-24-19, 12:58 PM
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regarding the issue of stretching really tight tubulars... I've had that issue with Continentals. I'm not too proud to say that I've used plastic tire levers to get that danged tire up onto an old rim for stretching.
After being inflated on the old rim for a few months, the tire was slightly less tight!
Like clinchers, some tubulars fit tighter than others. No shame in getting out the tire levers and grunting that tire onto the rim.
Steve in Peoria
After being inflated on the old rim for a few months, the tire was slightly less tight!
Like clinchers, some tubulars fit tighter than others. No shame in getting out the tire levers and grunting that tire onto the rim.
Steve in Peoria
03-24-19, 01:12 PM
#70
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One of the other local shops (about the same distance to the west as the other shop is to the east) did not know what a tubular tire was. Scratch them as help.
probikekit.com has Vitorria Rally tubulars for $22.50. I’ll order a pair and give them a try.
I have three bikes that now have tubulars - the Serotta, Schwinn Peloton and a Della Santa. All came to me that way. So, I either figure this out or start changing those to clinchers. I’d rather keep the tubulars.
probikekit.com has Vitorria Rally tubulars for $22.50. I’ll order a pair and give them a try.
I have three bikes that now have tubulars - the Serotta, Schwinn Peloton and a Della Santa. All came to me that way. So, I either figure this out or start changing those to clinchers. I’d rather keep the tubulars.
03-24-19, 01:22 PM
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regarding the issue of stretching really tight tubulars... I've had that issue with Continentals. I'm not too proud to say that I've used plastic tire levers to get that danged tire up onto an old rim for stretching.
After being inflated on the old rim for a few months, the tire was slightly less tight!
Like clinchers, some tubulars fit tighter than others. No shame in getting out the tire levers and grunting that tire onto the rim.
Steve in Peoria
After being inflated on the old rim for a few months, the tire was slightly less tight!
Like clinchers, some tubulars fit tighter than others. No shame in getting out the tire levers and grunting that tire onto the rim.
Steve in Peoria
Consider trying a pair of the good Vittorias. (I've been lusting those G+ tubulars since I first rods a G+ clincher. Maybe a more durable, reliable, better gripping version of those oh-so-sweet silk tires of years ago.)
Ben
03-24-19, 01:32 PM
#73
Senior Member
Ok ,
I know one point tubulars were the only way to go , but as clinchers have improved significantly over time there seems to be no point to running them. I've been told they had a good ride, but they are messy, complicated and not as easy to change as a clincher . They also seem to be very expensive, so please can someone tell me why anyone still uses them other than they like being very old school?
I know one point tubulars were the only way to go , but as clinchers have improved significantly over time there seems to be no point to running them. I've been told they had a good ride, but they are messy, complicated and not as easy to change as a clincher . They also seem to be very expensive, so please can someone tell me why anyone still uses them other than they like being very old school?
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03-25-19, 09:58 AM
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That may be part of the appeal, riding stuff very few use.
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