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Best Mid-70s + derailleurs?

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Best Mid-70s + derailleurs?

Old 04-07-19, 05:12 PM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by Lascauxcaveman View Post
Jury's still out on my Huret Duopar, I need to try it with shifters I like better. The ones I am using with it require so much muscle to move that shifting is pretty awkward. The capacity can't be beat, though. If you want WIDE range, its certainly worth a look.
I've had 2 Duopar setups- I had issues with both. The first one with with an Eco- the jockey pulley was chewed up and the inner cage plate was bent. One could have caused the other, or they both just happened and added to issues... Pastor Bob cleaned mine up for me- but I just don't trust it.

The 2nd one was a Titanium- for as much as I dislike the Duopars- the Barcon-> Duopar Titanium-> Helicomatic setup was the smoothest shifting friction setup I've ever experienced. The transitions from gear to gear were nearly transparent- no "click click" or "clunk" or whatever- the only reason I knew the shift went through was the change in the resistance of the pedals. I had an issue where the tension on the cage just disappeared- I think the cage got pulled forward or back, and the spring arm came off the stop... or something. But that thing came off as soon as I got home and I think I was running a different RD every few weeks- so it was a worthwhile experience- My favorites were the XC Pro, the Deore XT and the Suntour XC triple pulley. That thing is badass.



Suntour XC by Dave The Golden Boy, on Flickr
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Old 04-07-19, 07:04 PM
  #27  
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I've mentioned it already, but second on the triple pulley. Although mine is a XC Sport. Still shifts better than anything I have. Only thing comparable to it was the 1st Gen Staghead XT Super Plate, but after reading some concerning reviews I retired it and stuck with the triple pulley.
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Old 04-07-19, 09:43 PM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by Salamandrine View Post
I have to ask, what is the problem with the Rally derailleurs that are already on there? Fairly or not, many people BITD would have considered those the best. They were certainly the most expensive and prestigious. Are you concerned about function, or perceived value, or period correctness? Something else?

That said, I agree with everyone else. The best functioning derailleurs were Suntour. Cyclone or V-GT, they all work the same. Cyclone fancier and lighter, VGT more rugged. I'd probably put a Cyclone on in this case, just because that's a pretty fancy bike. It'll hold up fine if you try not to hit rocks with it.
Hi,

There isn't a problem with the Campagnolo derailleurs, but in this area they would be thief bait. In fact they are in very good condition. I thought I'd upgrade while swapping out parts. I have another bike with nearly the same drive train, except that one has a Campagnolo triple CS and it works almost perfectly. I don't let it out of my sight.

The purpose of this posting was to verify my declining knowledge base.

Thanks & Cheers,

Van

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Old 04-08-19, 03:26 AM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by Road Fan View Post
One of the necessary rider capabilities with friction shifters is to shift the lever, then after it goes into gear "feather" it back until it runs quietly. It's just the way the beasts were in that time frame. That's also the way the racing beasts (Nuovo Record compared to Rallye, for example) worked. Some pieces of the day were better than others. On the better side were the Huret Duopar due to their vertical parallellogram in addition to the standard horizontal paralellogram. On the poorest side were (just my opinion) the Huret Allvit, but I think that was as much due to setup and reliability problems as to any design issues. But none of them will perform well in indexing applications. Frank Berto explored this at length in Dancing Chain, his Bicycling Magazine articles, and his book Upgrading your Bicycle. Not just my ideas.

I know and love them well. I am on my 4th build using nuovo record. My point was that if I am going to be on my bike for 7+ hours a day for multiple days I would not take a fiddly shifting campy bike. For the Bikes I have, for CC touring only going 100km a day I would use the campy. Long trips the French bike with Surpurbe.
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Old 04-08-19, 12:04 PM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by Kuromori View Post
The post before mine was talking about overshift and trim, and no, you can't just make an index shifter for any derailer, it doesn't work like that. That's why the slant parallelogram was such a big deal. A shiftmate is not at all complex, it's just a pulley that modifies cable pull by a set ratio. A duopar really should be able to track cogs nearly as well as a modern index derailer was the point.
I wasn't familiar with the part going by this name. What you describe sounds like what I've heard called a demultiplicator (which I happen to think is not an especially friendly name).

I do get what you're saying, but I also see clubman's point. Indexed shifting doesn't do the two-step (1. Shift far enough to get the gear to change. 2. Back off a hair to remove the little bit of rubbing and resulting clatter) process that seems to come with the territory when dealing with 1970's derailleurs. Even with today's brifters, there's an ability built in to mimic this action, but the indexed shifting found in, say, bar-con shifters, lacks this feature.
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Old 04-08-19, 12:59 PM
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Mavic 803 rear derailleur is a long cage version of the 801, discussed previously

851 adds CD treatment to the parallelogram pieces..
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Old 04-08-19, 01:36 PM
  #32  
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I vote for both Suntour Cyclone and Huret Duopar.

I'll add that Think that Shimano's Crane and Tourney are generally under-rated.

And what a bummer that the best Campy touring derailer violated patents and had to be re-designed, not for the better.

Shimano's SIS derailers use up more cable movement and so can feel lazy if friction shifting as compared to say a Simplex derailer.

Simplex's cheaper touring mech's shift well, but can be hard to find as suitable for direct-lounting without a factory claw attached.
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Old 04-08-19, 01:39 PM
  #33  
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The Secret To Successful Index Shifting

Originally Posted by clubman View Post
Am I missing your point? A friction derailleur is by most definitions, one that wasn't designed and manufactured with a compatible indexing shifter. You used the qualifier, 'given the right shiftmate'. Yes, you might be able to reverse engineer any good, bad or great derailleur to index given enough resources and skills but why would you?
TO ALL:

The secret to successful index shifting is a no-brainer: it's a top pulley with lateral side to side float that allows the chain to self center on the freewheel sprocket! 1 1/2mm to 2mm of movement is sufficient to do the job.

I've modified the top pulleys on a lot of my derailleurs. The first experiment was this Simplex SX-610. I've been running it on a 12-28T Shimano 8 speed cassette since 2007 without a problem. I had to file down the inner limit stop to get it to reach across all 8 sprockets.



I'm using Sachs Rival indexing levers which are knockoffs of Shimano and can be used interchangeably with them. I was having problems with levers that had standard 5-6 speed diameter barrels and didn't have enough wrap for 8 speeds. I originally set it up for friction shifting and it worked great. Them on a whim I changed the lever setting to indexing and it worked perfectly from the get go.



Huret Duopar derailleurs where the best for wide range shifting back in the mid 70's. Suntour long arm models and the Shimano Crane GS all shifted great but... nothing compared to Duopars when it came to jumping from the smaller sprockets to the largest in a single move when you unexpectedly needed to grab the lowest gear.

We imported some Huret Duopar derailleurs from France in 1975. They cost us about $100 wholesale! With them came a few steel bodied Duopar derailleurs. All the Titanium parts were made of chrome plated steel instead. I've never seen this model listed anywhere during that era.

We used them on tandems because they where a lot more rigid than the titanium models. The steel "Eco Duopar" model wasn't introduced until 1981.

Here's one I snagged back in 1975. It handles 50-46-28T chainrings x 13-32T 6 speed FW using Simplex Retrofriction levers without a glitch. It "walks" up the sprockets under load.



I'm running index RDs with friction shift levers on a number of my bikes. Here's a Campy Mirage "9 Speed" indexing RD. I'm using Campy Doppler retrofriction levers with an 8 speed cassette. It shifts smoother than any index lever combo.




With indexing RDs or modified top pulleys with float, you rarely have to trim friction levers after shifting. I'm running several Campy Nouvo Record RDs with modified pulleys and it's eliminated the 2 forward - 1 back shifting 2 step.

BTW. the problem with Campy's Synchro nightmare system is that they never explored how or why Shimano indexing worked. They tired to do everything with the levers and kept coming up with kludged together attempted solutions. ARGH!



In the words of Frank Berto (one of the things that got him in trouble with Campagnolo) Nuovo Record RDs are so well made that they will shift poorly forever (or something to that effect).



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Old 04-08-19, 06:29 PM
  #34  
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I have had the updated Campy Rally since the early '80's. Bought it for the "prestige" (I was young and foolish). Have tried it on several bikes over the years and could never get it to work nicely. It originally replaced an Cyclone II RD, which I went back to. I later went with the Heuret Duopar and still run it on my 48-45-26 x 12-26. Currently running an idexed Shimano Deore on my main bike, but not using the index setting on the bar-cons. Near flawless.

The problems with the Rally are the constant need to overshift and adjust. And it weighs a TON! (It is pretty though.)

Anyways, my two pennies,
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Old 04-09-19, 06:46 AM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by daviddavieboy View Post
I know and love them well. I am on my 4th build using nuovo record. My point was that if I am going to be on my bike for 7+ hours a day for multiple days I would not take a fiddly shifting campy bike. For the Bikes I have, for CC touring only going 100km a day I would use the campy. Long trips the French bike with Surpurbe.
What you call "fiddly" some of us call "vintage" and "familiar." I'm not arguing for or against Campy NR, SR and earlier ones. There are numerous other companies and products with the same problems because they are similar designs with similar flaws.

But it's your opinion and it's not invalid. Seems to me you need to change to some level of indexing. I'm not the kind of C&Ver that can't accept index shifting on a vintage frame - I've put it on my 1984 Mondonico, which came with 126 mm OLD and Shimano 600 friction 2x6. My least favorite set of derailleurs. For the past 10+ years it's been 130 mm and running Campy 2x10 and sometimes 3x10.
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Old 04-09-19, 07:19 AM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by Kuromori View Post
I'm skeptical about the claim that you couldn't get a duopar to index, given you had the right shiftmate. I mean, you can get a Shimano Skylark to index and a duopar is clearly superior to that sincethose Berto articles said it was on par with if not superior to contemporary slant designs.
Berto has several criteria for good indexing:

1. from gear to gear, including changes at the chainset, the upper derailleur wheel maintains the free length of chain relatively constant. Examples: the DuoPar was probably the best of the vintage at this feat, where the NR was not too good at that beyond a narrow range. That's probably related to why the Rallye is not a great derailleur. This feature minimized overshift and undershift, eliminating the need to feather.

2. Frank said, the lateral motion related to cable pull needs to be linear. I'm not so sure about this - seems to me if the derailleur lateral to cable pull transfer function is not linear, it should be possible to design an index controller that has a complementary function. But he did test linearity and found the Campy and the Huret lacking. I never studied or owned a Skylark, so I don't know.

3. Perhaps as Jon says, designed-in lateral play in the upper derailleur wheel is needed. Seems to me that is related to non-linear transverse motion, and to having a derailleur/cable system that is free from friction and elasticity - the cage always goes to exactly the same place every time.

This is a lot more than "better" or "worse."
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Old 04-09-19, 08:29 AM
  #37  
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I toured on a Shimano Superplate for about three months. It was fine but I guess maybe I'm lucky it didn't break. Suntour VGT and Vx and VGT Luxe and all those seem bombproof and work great. Cyclone M2 is only 30g heavier than a Jubilee with equivalent length cage, and lighter than anything now, even with carbon fiber in the mix. I've never seen an AG-Tech or Mountech that was working.

I have the Dancing Chain. After reading it, I was inspired to go grab the clapped-out Ti Duopar from a box and put it on a bike. It has so much slop in the pivots that it shifts really horribly! By the end of my ride I was afraid to change gear. I thus remembered why my old relative who gave it to me said he quit using it. As much as I admire Berto's work to systematize all the variables that make for a good shift, his work didn't cover robustness to much meaningful degree, and that is where the Duopar (and more spectacularly, the AG Tech and Superplate) fail.
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Old 04-09-19, 10:14 AM
  #38  
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The added complexity of a dual parallelogram derailleur means that the effect of of any wear is greater than it would be on a single parallelogram derailleur. The wide capacity of these derailleurs also made them attractive for ATBs which are used in very dirty conditions, that accelerate the wear rates. Frankly, no derailleurs used on early ATBs had good survival rates, at least not until Shimano came up with quality sealed pivots.

In Bertos' defense, he didn't have the means, time or money to conduct durability tests on the dozens of derailleurs that he tested. Even if he had the means and money, consumers weren't going to wait a year for the accelerated durability test results on a new derailleur. They assumed the manufacture had gone through appropriate lab and field testing. This is one area where the size of Shimano afforded a advantage over smaller players like Huret, Campagnolo and Sun Tour. While Shimano's product concepts might not always find favour with the public, it was more thoroughly tested and more likely to function as intended.
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Old 04-09-19, 12:29 PM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by Road Fan View Post
Berto has several criteria for good indexing:

1. from gear to gear, including changes at the chainset, the upper derailleur wheel maintains the free length of chain relatively constant. Examples: the DuoPar was probably the best of the vintage at this feat, where the NR was not too good at that beyond a narrow range. That's probably related to why the Rallye is not a great derailleur. This feature minimized overshift and undershift, eliminating the need to feather.

2. Frank said, the lateral motion related to cable pull needs to be linear. I'm not so sure about this - seems to me if the derailleur lateral to cable pull transfer function is not linear, it should be possible to design an index controller that has a complementary function. But he did test linearity and found the Campy and the Huret lacking. I never studied or owned a Skylark, so I don't know.

3. Perhaps as Jon says, designed-in lateral play in the upper derailleur wheel is needed. Seems to me that is related to non-linear transverse motion, and to having a derailleur/cable system that is free from friction and elasticity - the cage always goes to exactly the same place every time.

This is a lot more than "better" or "worse."
This is entirely academic since I don't have a duopar to play with, but the thing is the lateral motion isn't actually linear on index derailers except for SRAM which was way late in the game. At a glance, the anchor points on the duopar should make it close enough to what passes for linear on an index derailer, although I guess according to Berto, apparently not. The lateral play is absolutely not necessary, but yes, it also helps. There were non-Shimano index systems without float and anyone who put aftermarket CNC pulleys in their Shimano mechs most likely removed their float. The ability of a derailer to index is really most reliant on the lack of the need to trim, which is what the lateral play helps with, and I suppose the same behavior moving both up and down the gear range which is what tracking close to cogs helps with. If anything I would have guessed it would be cable pull that harms the duopar's chances of indexing, as dirty cables and high actuation ratios tend to ruin the ability to operate the same in both directions.
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Old 04-09-19, 12:37 PM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by scarlson View Post
I toured on a Shimano Superplate for about three months. It was fine but I guess maybe I'm lucky it didn't break. Suntour VGT and Vx and VGT Luxe and all those seem bombproof and work great. Cyclone M2 is only 30g heavier than a Jubilee with equivalent length cage, and lighter than anything now, even with carbon fiber in the mix. I've never seen an AG-Tech or Mountech that was working.

I have the Dancing Chain. After reading it, I was inspired to go grab the clapped-out Ti Duopar from a box and put it on a bike. It has so much slop in the pivots that it shifts really horribly! By the end of my ride I was afraid to change gear. I thus remembered why my old relative who gave it to me said he quit using it. As much as I admire Berto's work to systematize all the variables that make for a good shift, his work didn't cover robustness to much meaningful degree, and that is where the Duopar (and more spectacularly, the AG Tech and Superplate) fail.
I have a small pile of DuoPars, and have had one in use on my Trek 610 for a number of years now. But it's a road bike, not ever used on dirt roads. His measurements were done on an indoor bench fixture. I'm sure somewhere he wrote about his riding.

Keeping it in context, I thought the discussion was about design of derailleurs, not about durability or withstanding abuse.
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Old 04-09-19, 12:45 PM
  #41  
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Originally Posted by Road Fan View Post
I have a small pile of DuoPars, and have had one in use on my Trek 610 for a number of years now. But it's a road bike, not ever used on dirt roads. His measurements were done on an indoor bench fixture. I'm sure somewhere he wrote about his riding.

Keeping it in context, I thought the discussion was about design of derailleurs, not about durability or withstanding abuse.
One could argue there's such a thing as designing for durability and withstanding abuse. Schwinn certainly thought so when mandating Schwinn approved criteria.
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Old 04-09-19, 01:28 PM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by Kuromori View Post
One could argue there's such a thing as designing for durability and withstanding abuse. Schwinn certainly thought so when mandating Schwinn approved criteria.
+1 to that! I think it even falls under the relatively broad topic of the OP's original post. He did say it was a tourer. I'm a cyclotourist and a gravel grinder so I can't help but give everything that experiential spin. I guess it depends what the OP really wants the bike to be: a rider or a showpiece or (most likely) something somewhere between those two.

There's nothing quite like a long-cage Huret Jubilee, but these days they are best enjoyed close to home on nice days. Even the beautiful, underappreciated, Cyclone M2 is dubious for long distance reliability in the grit. I can vouch for the Campy Rally and the Suntour V series though. Two of my family rode a Rally-equipped tandem around Lake Superior back in the '70s. That thing would go and go, with no maintenance. Mediocrely. Forever. Like Frank Berto said, except he said that about Nuovo Record, except they're basically the same in the important bits for wear resilience. And I have seen Suntour V series mechs with mud wasp colonies in them and they still work.
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Old 04-09-19, 01:44 PM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by Kuromori View Post
One could argue there's such a thing as designing for durability and withstanding abuse. Schwinn certainly thought so when mandating Schwinn approved criteria.
True, and I think them and Raleigh were rather unique. Perhaps Trek was on the same page. But those were/are vertically integrated bicycle companies, not component companies. Raleigh's components up to the early '60s were nearly all from captive companies, Schwinn and I think Trek were both into buying parts that meet their standards. Interesting, I guess, that Duopars were not original on a lot of models from those companies.

Until the mid-60's (?) a lot of the Raleigh story was their ownership of Sturmey Archer and Phillips. The 3 and 4 speed hubs were the mainstay of the entire product line, from cut-price mass-produced utility bikes to long-distance lightweight world record-setters like the RRA and other higher end club performance bikes. In addition to three-speed bikes, Phillips was the source of a lot of mechanical parts, like BBs and cups, wheel nuts and wingnuts, and hundreds of other shiny, precise, long lasting manufactured pieces.

Being high volume houses they also had to make sure what they specified was actually availble. Can't satisfy a projected 5 million sport-tourer's per year if you can only commit suppliers to 2.5 million rear derailleurs.

Peugeot was also very vertically integrated - I wonder how they managed supply and quality?

My experience with this stuff was with Ford and with automotive suppliers. The common element is scale - quality at a scale of 10 million units per year is very different from that for 360 units per year. I have trouble believing the market for Duopars was 10 M/year, where I would believe that for the much less $$ Allvit.

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Old 04-09-19, 01:48 PM
  #44  
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True, "float" is not a prerequisite for an indexing derailleur system. However, without it, the system has to be designed, manufactured and, more importantly, maintained to high level of accuracy and precision, The first two can be controlled by the manufacturer but by designing float into the system it can tolerate some degree of variance from nominal in normal use. Earlier Shimano systems used different approaches to address chain positioning but the Centeron pulley used with SIS proved the simplest, more reliable and most cost effective.
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Old 04-09-19, 02:34 PM
  #45  
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Originally Posted by Senior Ryder 00 View Post
There isn't a problem with the Campagnolo derailleurs, but in this area they would be thief bait. In fact they are in very good condition. I thought I'd upgrade while swapping out parts. I have another bike with nearly the same drive train, except that one has a Campagnolo triple CS and it works almost perfectly. I don't let it out of my sight.
Oh, I see. Probably not that safe to lock up anyway, being a Holdsworth with a TA crank. I suppose a V-GT would maximize function vs perceived value, but who knows. Allvit? Simplex prestige? Best to have something pretty grubby looking and stealth for locking up, IME.
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Old 04-09-19, 03:01 PM
  #46  
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Originally Posted by Road Fan View Post
But it's your opinion and it's not invalid. Seems to me you need to change to some level of indexing. I'm not the kind of C&Ver that can't accept index shifting on a vintage frame - I've put it on my 1984 Mondonico, which came with 126 mm OLD and Shimano 600 friction 2x6. My least favorite set of derailleurs. For the past 10+ years it's been 130 mm and running Campy 2x10 and sometimes 3x10.
I think that if I could get the right combination of chain length/axle position modern cable housings things would be better I just don't mind it on day rides. I have no campy triple bikes either, I am waiting to get the right derailleur.

Are you using friction on x10? I have a set of wheels I use for rough spring roads and only can get the SR derailleur to cover 8 of the 10 cogs. I keep it trimmed for the middle 8.
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Old 04-09-19, 05:48 PM
  #47  
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I wonder if those Soma Retro Long Cages fit only on Campy. Could they go on a Suntour?
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Old 04-09-19, 06:15 PM
  #48  
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Originally Posted by vintagerando View Post
I wonder if those Soma Retro Long Cages fit only on Campy. Could they go on a Suntour?
Why?

It's not like there is a shortage of GT caged Suntour V, VX, Cyclone, BL, XC or anything. I get the whole "why not" thing, but... it seems like a whole lot of money and work for zero payout- Even if it worked. $35 and whatever for a Suntour derailleur- vs a Suntour GT derailleur that you could get for under $35.

I wasted an afternoon trying cage swaps between dissimilar Suntour derailleurs. I get that the Campagnolo unit is distinctive- and people want to have Campagnolo stuff on their bikes- so that cage fills a niche. But at this point, I can't even be bothered to actually look into swapping the cages on my XT and XTR derailleurs- it works fine with a medium cage- but a GS cage would be so much cooler...
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Old 04-09-19, 07:50 PM
  #49  
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Originally Posted by The Golden Boy View Post
Why?

...at this point, I can't even be bothered to actually look into swapping the cages on my XT and XTR derailleurs- it works fine with a medium cage- but a GS cage would be so much cooler...
Even worse, my old Deore DX rear locked up with grit so I swapped in a 200GS. It works just as well and I don't care that it says 200GS anymore! Where has my ego gone?

Seriously, this crappy bottom end offering will likely outlast those Ti-Duopars.
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Old 04-09-19, 08:26 PM
  #50  
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Originally Posted by verktyg View Post
TO ALL:

The secret to successful index shifting is a no-brainer: it's a top pulley with lateral side to side float that allows the chain to self center on the freewheel sprocket! 1 1/2mm to 2mm of movement is sufficient to do the job.

I've modified the top pulleys on a lot of my derailleurs. The first experiment was this Simplex SX-610. I've been running it on a 12-28T Shimano 8 speed cassette since 2007 without a problem. I had to file down the inner limit stop to get it to reach across all 8 sprockets.
How do you actually go about making this modification?
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