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Are vintage dropouts a design flaw or hazard?

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Are vintage dropouts a design flaw or hazard?

Old 04-09-19, 10:28 AM
  #76  
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Originally Posted by USAZorro View Post
I got transfixed on the description of lying on the interstate. Which one?
It was a minor over-exaggeration*. It was a deserted country road near my house, and I was completely unscathed.

The part about the QR still being on tight however is true.


* Tip of the hat to Edward Abbey.
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Old 04-09-19, 10:30 AM
  #77  
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Originally Posted by madpogue View Post
Why second thoughts on option 3? Seems like it's a twoferone, esp. if theft is a potential issue up there in the Timbers (wherever that is.....).
Theft is not an issue. I worry it might not hold as strongly as the best quick release, and I also worry about stripping the hex-bolt head, especially if it is aluminum.

Santa Crud mountains. The Timbers of Fennario is from the Grateful Dead lexicon.

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Old 04-09-19, 10:47 AM
  #78  
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Looks like the weakness of the DT Swiss one is it has a tendency to strip out the thread on the non-lever side if you over-tighten.

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Old 04-09-19, 12:59 PM
  #79  
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Looks to me like the weakness is that it's a glorified wingnut. A wingnut wouldn't strip though. Not encouraging.

I looked on DT's web page and they claim 5000N clamp force vs 4000N for an external cam QR. I have no way to test an internal cam QR but I'd take a WAG that it's a lot higher than either.

Thanks for posting though. I wondered how those worked. I thought maybe they had some planetary mechanism for increased force, but they are much simpler in reality.
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Old 04-09-19, 01:34 PM
  #80  
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Originally Posted by shoota View Post
I've always wondered why they used horizontal dropouts. Turns out the answer was pretty obvious. Now,,,,,how do I remove bent dropout adjusters...
I chopped mine off with dremel cutting wheel, as close as possible to where it pokes out of the dropout. Then I used a screwdriver and needle nose vice grips to back the other half of the screw out of the dropout.

I was fully prepared to leave in place, whatever pieces of the adjuster got stuck in the dropout, but once the bent part was chopped off, the rest came right out without much drama, so it never came to that. Don't waste your time trying to straighten them if they're really bent, just chop 'em off and replace. I found some new adjusters on Ebay for less than $5.00.
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Old 04-09-19, 01:38 PM
  #81  
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I took a closer look today.

The axles don't protrude through the dropouts. The dropouts are, in other words, more than adequately thick for these hubs.

The interface looks pretty clean, but I cleaned it with isopropanol anyway.

I put the QR back on with as much force as possible. My hand hurts, and I thought there was a non-zero chance I would break the thing.

The adjustment/positioning bolts aren't backed all the way out. When I tried to do so, the ends came off., i.e., they are really threaded caps, not part of the bolt. I see no way to back the bolts all the way out of the dropout, unless I grab the threaded part with a vice grip (which will destroy it). The reason why I worry about this is it means the wheel is slightly further forward than it needs to be, and as a consequence the quick-release caps only bite into the top and bottom surrounding the drop-out slot. If I could pull the wheel all the way back into the slot, it presumably would give those caps more drop-out metal surface to bite into.
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Old 04-09-19, 02:09 PM
  #82  
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Originally Posted by Lemond1985 View Post
IThen I used a screwdriver
Are yours slotted?
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Old 04-09-19, 02:17 PM
  #83  
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Originally Posted by wgscott View Post
Are yours slotted?
The end of the drop out adjuster that's inside the drop out usually is a small Phillips head retaining the spring.
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Old 04-09-19, 02:21 PM
  #84  
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OK, that makes much more sense. But it does preclude the axle going all the way back, unless I remove them (and it appears I need at least one).
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Old 04-09-19, 02:27 PM
  #85  
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Originally Posted by shoota View Post
Now,,,,,how do I remove bent dropout adjusters...
Pliers, typically. Soak 'em in your favorite rusty bolt remover juice first.

Sometimes they just won't come out. I've been able to carefully drill them out in some cases.

Are horizonals a design flaw? Depends on how you look at it. Verticals are much better, IMO. There used to be the arguement that one could move the wheel back for fender clearance, then forward for racing, but we've solved that nowadays by owning several bikes

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Old 04-09-19, 02:29 PM
  #86  
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Never assume that the dropouts are parallel to each other, in plane and spaced precisely 130mm w/o testing w/ a proper dropout alignment tool.
>130 and a bit of wonky mis-alignment can defeat a properly tensioned quality internal cam QR under heavy load.
1st things 1st, if alignments are accurate proceed knowing that is a fact.

Testing:
Having seen other racers slip a wheel on the start it was SOP back when to do full power starts when the race wheels were installed before an event to be certain that everything stayed put, the cogs on the FW change actually meshed w/ the chain, brakes didn't rub and no simple/avoidable mechanical DNF was a "big surprise".

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Old 04-09-19, 02:49 PM
  #87  
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Originally Posted by ThermionicScott View Post
I want to see more of this project...
Seconded. Is that a custom Cambio Corsa drop?
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Old 04-09-19, 03:20 PM
  #88  
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Originally Posted by 73StellaSX76 View Post
Was the main purpose of horizontal adjustability to accommodate addition of fenders in wet weather? Or was there some ride or handling characteristic tune-ability being provided with a variable wheelbase? In other words. how do we get by so well nowadays with vertical dropouts?
Horizontal dropouts are an artifact of the single-speed/fixed gear ancestry, where the dropout slot was used to tension the chain to accommodate a range of rear cog sizes. Track bikes have rear-facing slots to allow the wheel to get closer to the seat tube and shorten the wheelbase, while road bikes have forward-facing slots to allow wheel removal when mudguards are installed. Vertical dropouts are actually ideal for bikes with mudguards. Vertical dropouts also allow more precise positioning in relation to the derailleur hanger, an important parameter for modern indexed shifting systems.
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Old 04-09-19, 03:37 PM
  #89  
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Originally Posted by JohnDThompson View Post
Horizontal dropouts are an artifact of the single-speed/fixed gear ancestry, where the dropout slot was used to tension the chain to accommodate a range of rear cog sizes. Track bikes have rear-facing slots to allow the wheel to get closer to the seat tube and shorten the wheelbase, while road bikes have forward-facing slots to allow wheel removal when mudguards are installed. Vertical dropouts are actually ideal for bikes with mudguards. Vertical dropouts also allow more precise positioning in relation to the derailleur hanger, an important parameter for modern indexed shifting systems.
If you've ever seen ancient turn of the century track bikes, they have rather long chainstays. I think that rear facing fork ends have more to do with the fact that chain tugs and adjuster screws are similarly ancient and many of the dropouts of the day involved flattening the chainstay to be part of the dropout. As you note, it does that horizontal dropouts seem to be designed around keeping horizontal adjustment and making the wheel relatively easier to remove. Something to note, vertical dropouts also require more precise construction, not something to be taken for granted, and prior to B-screws you could gain some rudimentary adjustment by moving the axle further or closer to the derailer hanger.
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Old 04-09-19, 03:42 PM
  #90  
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Skewer cams wear out. Nothing is forever. Box of Campy skewers downstairs from 50s 60s and 70s. Mostly interchangeable but not completely. Most were mismatched sets when I got them. When I need a skewer I go down and try to put together something that will work. Every piece seems to be basically eternal except for the cams. When they are done I do not try to regrind them to a better shape, they are done.

The only test is how does it feel? If you close the lever and it feels secure with a reasonable pressure you're good. If it doesn't feel like it closed smooth and positive it is over. Pushing harder doesn't make it close better, it's a cam.
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Old 04-09-19, 03:49 PM
  #91  
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Originally Posted by wgscott View Post
I put the QR back on with as much force as possible. My hand hurts...
Good lord.
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Old 04-09-19, 03:55 PM
  #92  
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Track dropouts are long because you warm up on a 15 cog and race on a 14. Unless you warm up on a 16 and then race on a 14. Changing chainrings or taking links out is not done so frequently. Changing cogs is pretty much every time. Unless you don't care and warm up on the same gear you will race.

Chain tugs are real convenient when wrestling with heavy wheels and approximate dropouts, as on a DL-1 or other bikes of that era. Very difficult to set chain tension on a DL-1 w/o tugs. If your DL-1 is operating w/fixed wheel you will have tugs. Track bikes don't need tugs, no one would bother when everything is working well.
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Old 04-09-19, 04:01 PM
  #93  
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Steel serrated surfaces biting into the dropout are critical. Aligned dropouts are too to assure full contact with the serrations.
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Old 04-09-19, 04:24 PM
  #94  
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Originally Posted by Reynolds View Post
I don't think that's a flawed design as powerful sprinters used them for many years without problems. Track racers use nutted axles but I doubt they are really necessary.
Track folk use nutted for two other reasons also. 1) Required to race on a velodrome (to prevent crashes from wheels hitting and opening up levers or the QR breaking spokes). 2) Nuts make getting the chain slack right child's play. You can tighten just one side and move the wheel at the chainstays to fine tune. With a QR you have to get the slack and center the wheel at the same time. If you are having a bad day, this can be very frustrating.

Edit: And on quick-releases: the point no one that I don't think has been made yet - lubrication. Oil or grease those lever assemblies, esp the cam and the rest of the inside lever axle. I like to grease the assembly but that requires taking it apart. Easy quick fix - TriFlo or light oil.

Ben

Last edited by 79pmooney; 04-09-19 at 04:31 PM.
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Old 04-09-19, 04:32 PM
  #95  
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I guess somehow people mistakenly thought it went without saying that making the nut tighter makes the lever harder to close, not that you're supposed to push an already closed skewer harder. Tugs are basically standard issue in keirin and were pretty common on all kinds bikes including track bikes around the turn of the century through the pre-war era.
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Old 04-09-19, 04:35 PM
  #96  
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Originally Posted by ThermionicScott View Post
I want to see more of this project...
The frame is on the way here.

I've been collecting a few parts.

From the ad, the frame was apparently a 1950's frame that heavily modified in the mid 80's, and repainted. The paint appears to be in excellent condition, but I have to decide to decide what to do about a few of the extra warts sticking out.

I'll post a new thread shortly, but hopefully will get the bike up to Portland for a C&V debut this summer sometime.
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Old 04-09-19, 05:24 PM
  #97  
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Originally Posted by SurferRosa View Post
Good lord.
Should I have tried prayer instead?
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Old 04-09-19, 07:52 PM
  #98  
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Not all skewers are created equal. ... So far the best skewers from the 80's for me = Maillard and Campy...... The worst = Mavic.
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Old 04-09-19, 07:59 PM
  #99  
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I have some DT Swiss skewers that are scary, they're plastic and don't even have a cam, you just tighten the flimsy plastic thing down, and hope for the best. Definitely not usable on horizontal dropouts.

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Old 04-10-19, 04:12 AM
  #100  
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If horizontal dropouts worked for Merckx and Hinault, I'm confident they'll work for me.
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