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Are vintage dropouts a design flaw or hazard?

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Are vintage dropouts a design flaw or hazard?

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Old 04-08-19, 07:05 PM
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Are vintage dropouts a design flaw or hazard?

I was riding my Bianchi today. It has Gipiemme dropouts that look like this:




As I was standing and hammering up a hill in what was probably a too-high gear, my wheel moved in the dropout. I have closed-cam Crampy quick-releases. I guess I just didn't have it on tight enough.

In any case, the wheel immediately locked on the frame, and down I went. Fortunately, due to my overall suckiness, I was going about Garmin-pause speed, so nothing bruised except my ego, and maybe my knee and hip. (It was my first significant fall since breaking my ankle 5 years ago, so I was pleasantly surprised by the outcome).

Was this dropout (from 1986 in my case) a design flaw?

I looked on my 2014 steel bike and the dropouts for the rear wheel go down, not forward, so presumably the risk of the wheel moving in the frame is substantially less.
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Old 04-08-19, 07:13 PM
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Check your axles. Do they poke out past the dropout? If so, your quick release might have been bottoming out more on the axle than biting the dropout. Could have been a simple case of needing to tighten the Q/R more too.

I wouldn't say horizontal dropouts are at fault for this. Vertical dropouts - as on modern bikes today - often have a slight angle to them as well which could aid a wheel coming out, if a Q/R wasn't biting. Even if it was straight down, one could get a wheel to pop out of one with a slightly-loose QR.

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Old 04-08-19, 07:17 PM
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I've had that happen to me a few times (though always from a start so I haven't crashed, thank goodness) and it's a real confidence killer, for sure. Sometimes I don't stand up and pedal for fear of wrenching the wheel out again.
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Old 04-08-19, 07:24 PM
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Horizontal dropouts can be prone to wheel slippage, but they usually work fine.

Is there smooth paint or chrome on the clamp surfaces of the dropout? Sometimes that needs to be roughed up before the wheel clamping works properly.
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Old 04-08-19, 07:25 PM
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quick release can only get so tight: get some
and then you can get it nice and snug.
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Old 04-08-19, 07:36 PM
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Check your dropouts with the proper alignment tool to make sure that they are parallel.
Use classic Internal Cam QR skewers from Campag or Shimano properly tensioned not the "modern" external cam designs which lack the compression needed for horizontal dropouts: Done.



-Bandera
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Old 04-08-19, 07:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Bandera View Post
Use classic Internal Cam QR skewers like Shimano still makes not the "modern" external cam designs which lack the compression needed for horizontal dropouts: Done.

-Bandera
+ 1 on this. Get a real quick release. People raced on bikes with these drop outs for a long time . . .
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Old 04-08-19, 07:40 PM
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Originally Posted by HTupolev View Post
Horizontal dropouts can be prone to wheel slippage, but they usually work fine.

Is there smooth paint or chrome on the clamp surfaces of the dropout? Sometimes that needs to be roughed up before the wheel clamping works properly.
It is chrome, but it is the first time this happened since 1986. I just took the bike out of my trainer, so it is possible I somehow loosened the QR a little bit when I did that.
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Old 04-08-19, 07:41 PM
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Originally Posted by bikemig View Post
+ 1 on this. Get a real quick release. People raced on bikes with these drop outs for a long time . . .
It is the Tullio-designed Crampy internal cam skewer that I got with the bike in 1986.


Edit:

It turns out is a Shimano look-alike that I think came with a replacement 105 wheel I got ca. 1995. But functionally, I think it is nearly identical and is internal cam.

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Old 04-08-19, 07:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Bandera View Post
Check your dropouts with the proper alignment tool to make sure that they are parallel.
Use classic Internal Cam QR skewers from Campag or Shimano properly tensioned not the "modern" external cam designs which lack the compression needed for horizontal dropouts: Done.



-Bandera
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Old 04-08-19, 07:46 PM
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Originally Posted by wgscott View Post
It is the Tullio-designed Crampy internal cam skewer that I got with the bike in 1986.
Yep with a chrome drop out, it can be tough to get them tight enough but yeah the internal cam skewer should do the job.
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Old 04-08-19, 07:47 PM
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Originally Posted by wgscott View Post
As I was standing and hammering up a hill in what was probably a too-high gear, my wheel moved in the dropout... I guess I just didn't have it on tight enough. In any case, the wheel immediately locked on the frame, and down I went.

Was this dropout (from 1986 in my case) a design flaw?
Why is it a design flaw if you did not have the QR tight enough???

The next thing you know, he'll be asking for a positive retention device on every axle attachment point.
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Old 04-08-19, 07:51 PM
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Originally Posted by wgscott View Post
It is chrome, but it is the first time this happened since 1986. I just took the bike out of my trainer, so it is possible I somehow loosened the QR a little bit when I did that.
If your machine in this config has never had this problem in the previous 33 years the hardware is not likely to suddenly be suspect.
Something has changed, most likely moving from the trainer to the road.
Re-set QR tension F&R and proceed like it was 1986.

-Bandera
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Old 04-08-19, 07:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Bad Lag View Post
Why is it a design flaw if you did not have the QR tight enough???

The next thing you know, he'll be asking for a positive retention device on every axle attachment point.
Same reason a fork with dropouts facing down and back with disc brakes is a design flaw.

Is there any reason the drop-out should be horizontal?

The QR was by no means loose. I had to pry the thing open while lying in a pool of blood in the middle of an interstate highway.
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Old 04-08-19, 08:00 PM
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Originally Posted by wgscott View Post
Same reason a fork with dropouts facing down and back with disc brakes is a design flaw.

Is there any reason the drop-out should be horizontal?

The QR was by no means loose. I had to pry the thing open while lying in a pool of blood in the middle of an interstate highway.
Well, then you might prefer bikes from the turn of the century. Some of them had holes for axles, not dropouts.

-Kurt
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Old 04-08-19, 08:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Bandera View Post
If your machine in this config has never had this problem in the previous 33 years the hardware is not likely to suddenly be suspect.
Something has changed, most likely moving from the trainer to the road.
Re-set QR tension F&R and proceed like it was 1986.

-Bandera
Well, I got new wheels with a 130mm White Industry Hub, and had the frame cold-set (by someone competent) from its original 126mm-compatible geometry about 3 years ago, so I have made some hardware changes...
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Old 04-08-19, 08:00 PM
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Originally Posted by cudak888 View Post
Well, then you might prefer bikes from the turn of the century. Some of them had holes for axles, not dropouts.

-Kurt
Which century? Sounds like through-axles.
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Old 04-08-19, 08:02 PM
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Originally Posted by wgscott View Post
Which century? Sounds like through-axles.
19th. Though I could weld some washers onto the dropouts of 1990 Specialized if you'd prefer the 20th

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Old 04-08-19, 08:08 PM
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Originally Posted by wgscott View Post
Well, I got new wheels with a 130mm White Industry Hub, and had the frame cold-set (by someone competent) from its original 126mm-compatible geometry about 3 years ago, so I have made some hardware changes...
So you are using the 126 "Tullio-designed Crampy internal cam skewer that I got with the bike in 1986" QR w/ a 130 WI hub?

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Old 04-08-19, 08:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Bandera View Post
So you are using the 126 "Tullio-designed Crampy internal cam skewer that I got with the bike in 1986" QR w/ a 130 WI hub?

-Bandera
Yup.

Is that bad?

I mean, functionally?

I modernized the bike with an Athena 11 speed triple groupset, and had to get new wheels.
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Old 04-08-19, 08:15 PM
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To answer the title question:
"Are vintage dropouts a design flaw or hazard?"

No, they were/are not.

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Old 04-08-19, 08:21 PM
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Originally Posted by wgscott View Post
Yup.

Is that bad?

I mean, functionally?

I modernized the bike with an Athena 11 speed triple groupset, and had to get new wheels.
Dunno, never did try a 126 QR on 130 spacing, or would be inclined to do so.
If I had a new 130 wheel to install on a re-spaced horizontal dropout frame-set I'd go with a new Shimano 130 spec internal cam QR with great confidence that all would stay put.

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Old 04-08-19, 08:25 PM
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@Bandera

I've got Shimano Dura Ace internal cams on my 2014 bike. I guess I could always try that. Those things don't budge.

The headset and the quick releases are about the only thing that remains from the original build.

Here is the bike, fwiw:

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Old 04-08-19, 08:34 PM
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I've got Shimano Dura Ace internal cams on my 2014 bike. I guess I could always try that. Those things don't budge.
No, they do not: Silly old heavy/obsolete design.

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Old 04-08-19, 08:36 PM
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The old design didnít kill anyone most of the time. Clearly vertical drops are a conspiracy
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