Luke147

Hi Everyone!

Recently I've bought 1978 Batavus Criterium. I did some research on the net and most of them has Ishiwata sticker on the frame. Mine has not. Instead, it has this sticker (photo). I am curious, because i think Ishiwata came in from the 80's on. Or is it not? So what is this Cr Mo frame? Dutch build? It is curious, because most of Crit's that I've seen had the Ishiwata sticker on the frame. Anyway, it rides quite good, it is responsive. But is this much worse than Ishiwata 025? Maybe some of specialists out there has some knowledge about that question. It would be great. And by the way, my bike is in the "Bring your Batavus" thread.

juvela

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@Munny, @non-fixie

the welded crown shows it to be something less than a top line model

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non-fixie 

The Criterium was the third model in de line-up, both from the top (below the Professional and the Competition) and the bottom (above the Course and the Champion). Mid-tier in its purest form. Ishiwata 022 main triangle during the seventies, Reynolds 501 in the eighties.

Disregard the stickies with the years in these pics, please.

Luke147

Thanks for the insights non-fixie! So it was almost as I thought. I've seen those brochures some time ago, but I was disoriented by the sickies with the years and thought they started using this Ishiwita maybe later on or something... Maybe they did started using those stickies bit later on? Mine is from 1978, guessing from S/N.

So it is not bad after all i think? Perfect mid tier sounds perfect to me.

Thanks again!

T-Mar

I wouldn't assume this was Ishiwata 022. Marketing people typically wouldn't miss the opportunity to mention "butted" on the tubing decal. I suspect it's plain gauge CrMo. The seat post size may provide more insight.

Luke147

Exactly! But I have seen on the net Criteriums with Ishiwata sticker and just one with this. So it is kind of strange. Why do they change the material?
I have measered the seat post size and it is 26 mm. It can provide some more insight?

T-Mar

How did you measure the post? 26mm is really small, down in lightweight hi-tensile territory. If you remove the post, there is probably a size stamped on, below the insertion mark.

Luke147

Ok, I've found it and it says 27.2 mm

T-Mar

27.2mm is consistent with Ishiwata 022. I'm not aware of any plain gauge CrMo sets that would have used this large a post during this era. Still, I find it very strange that they didn't exploit "butted" or "double butted" on the decal.

Luke147

Yes it is strange. For example this is NOS condition Criterium and it has Ishiwata 025 sticker

https://www.picclickimg.com/00/s/MTA...00-NOS-_57.jpg

and this I think too

https://webimg.secondhandapp.com/w-i...3f0b82349b66fb

But the system of the brakes cords is newer from mine, maybe early 80's?

This one is from the 1980 and you can see Ishiwata style decal with this newer system of cords providing
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/92/d0...04614b4604.jpg

So I guess I will never know for sure. Only the factory worker/expert may know the answer!

T-Mar

Ishiwata 025 was a mixed tubeset, using the double butted down tube from Ishiwata 022 with plain gauge CrMo elsewhere. The plain gauge seat tube used on Ishiwata 025 typically employed a 26.8mm seat post. Based on the subject frame's post size, at least your main triangle should be Ishiwata 022. 1978 would be too early for any of the equivalent seamed EX tubesets. Of course, that assumes it actually is Ishiwata. I guess you could always remove the fork to see if the steerer tube is Ishiwata. That would increase your confidence level.

Luke147

Thanks! That would be in line with what non-fixie have written about Ishiwata 22 main triangle in the 70's Criteriem's. And that would explain why they didn' used Ishiwata 022 sticker, because from what is written on it, it would assume that everything is cr-mo, which is not and I guess they (Ishiwata) didn't have different/matching sticker to this particular Batavus model tubeset - it has hi-ten forks and seat stays and not like Competition model - cr mo forks and seat stays.

I have written to Batavus about the subject but I don't think that they have the knowledge, since the company changed hands.

Luke147

How would I know if hte steerer tube is Ishiwata? By what is written on or? Or measerment? I think I can do that along with bearings replacement and check.
Thanks for all the answers!

T-Mar

Ishiwata steerer tubes will typically be stamped. Early versions used their logo, which looks like two concentric circles with an "I.S" at the bottom. The two concentric circles represent the cross section of a double butted frame tube that has been formed into a circle, while the I.S. stands for Ishiwata Seisakusho. Later versions just said "ISHIWATA", though I'm not sure of the transition date. There may also be an alpha-numeric date code, format y.m (e.g. 8.C = 1978, March).

Regarding the tubing decal, typically utilizing lower grade stays and forks didn't prevent manufacturers from applying a Tange or Ishiwata decal that was representative of the main tubes. Ishiwata did, in fact, have different decals to represent if only the main triangle was 022. The full set typically stated "DOUBLE BUTTED TUBES FORKS AND STAYS". The reduced set said "DOUBLE BUTTED TUBES", omitting the reference to stays and forks. However, the latter could be misinterpreted and there was a clarified version stating "DOUBLE BUTTED THREE MAIN TUBES". Manufacturers differentiated between tubes, fork blades and stays but most consumers did not, so it was easy to mislead a consumer into thinking that they were getting a full set of the stated tubes, when they weren't. You had to know how to read the decal, to ensure what you were getting.

Luke147

Ok, thanks for all the insights again. I'll check the fork then. And last question - if the main triangle is actually Ishiwata 022, then the steerer tube should be also Ishiwata (fork decals say "high tensil steel blades")? In other words it is necessary or only optional?

T-Mar

The steerer tube could be Ishiwata but they they could also have have gone with a another brand or generic fork for additional cost savings.

non-fixie 

If you'll allow me, I'll muddy the waters a little bit more.

From what I think might be the correct 1984 Batavus US catalog, I got the following pic. It's difficult to read, but I think it says:

"Main frame triangle hand-made of Ishiwata 025 double butted chrome molybdenum steel tubing, rear fork and stays hand-made of Ishiwata 022 high-tensile steel tubing; (...) FRONT FORK: Hand-made of Ishiwata 022 high tensile steel tubing"

HPL

Hello,
I don't know nor really care much as to what tubing a frame has as long as it fits and feels comfortable for the type of riding you use a specific frame for. That being said I do, for historical and/or sales purposes, like to be able to identify what type of tubing is used for construction.
​​​​​​ I presently ride a Critical for general city riding and training. It has 501 tubing, but I have no idea when Batavus started using it. The bike came with Camp 980 drivetrain, hubs dated 1984. I don't think it's later than 1986, and it could have been a transitional frame made in '84 after the 1984 catalogue was released. If someone has access to 1985-1986 catalogues I'd be curious to see when they changed tubing. I believe Reynolds came out with 501 around 1983-1984 so it would make sense for them to change materials, especially if it was more economically advantageous.
. Personally I love the frame, and I probably have the smallest size (51.5 cm c-c seat tube) keeping it light and stiffer than the bigger guys. I will say, one of the best rides I picked up for under $150, with that much value in the components alone. Great ride with multiple use 28mm tires, but feels way better with 23-25mm. Enjoy your Batavus!

(no photos, sorry not yet matured for that privilege)

non-fixie 

FWIW, I've always considered the Criterium to be one of the "nice" bikes in the Batavus line-up (as opposed to the Course and the Champion).

And while I'm sure the "1984" designation on the page I posted above is incorrect (too late), the "1985" sticky may be correct, which means 501 was used by then. Your serial number should tell you when the bike was made.

Luke147

Non-fixie, thanks for your few words, such nice! My Criterium rides like a heaven! This whole nvestigation is out of curiosity, I think! It should be mentioned that I've bought this bike for just about 140 $ (550 złoty, since I am polish and I livve in Poland). I have the choice - Peugeot PX10, with Reynolds 531 for about 300$ or this bike. I went for Batavus, since the offer was great. It was dirty and so on, had awful, destroyed yellow tape... but I've given my heart to this bike, since it is beatiful, rides smoothly and really fast! So definitely I'm enjoying my Batavus!

I was just curious about it's history, and what was done to manufacture it! I'm going to find out the fork tomorrow.

Non-fixie, I have seen you have one of Batavuses Professional? How does it ride? Do you have also a Criterium or ride one?

Thanks guys for all the info and involvment!

Luke147

Thanks for a few wise words! I'm definately enjoying my Batavus! From what I've read you have a bit younger one and I am also curious when they changed tubing exactly. I think you might be right writing about 83-84. My Batavus was about 140$ (550 złoty, since I am from Poland) and it was great price I think. Also I have 23mm Vittoria tires and it rides like a dream!

My investigetion is all about curiosity, not some purist stuff or something. I am also (my occupation) a cultural historian on university, so it is always a thrill to investigate the past

non-fixie 

You're welcome. Batavus is a somewhat underrated brand, so it's nice to be able to help polish (no pun intended ) up their image a bit. I actually have three Professionals, two of which I have rebuilt and ridden. I am certainly no expert, but I think they compare nicely to their main competitor BITD, the Gazelle Champion Mondial. They tend to be a little cheaper than the Gazelle, but a lot harder to find.

This is an '87, which I used to get acquainted with STI. A bit too small for my taste, and I never liked the looks of the early STI brifters, so it didn't get the miles and the appreciation it deserves:



This is an '84 in the same size, but with an earlier - and prettier IMO- Dura-Ace group (pictured as bought):



This is also an '84, but in a size I like better. Rebuilt it fairly recently and so far I'm liking it a lot:



And yes, I also have a Criterium. An early nineties version, which came with a Reynolds 531 main triangle, and I haven't ridden it in years. I did like its ride, but not its looks (Comic Sans? What were they thinking?). I never even bothered to take a picture, so I had to borrow one from the internet. It's one of these:



It was the first bike I rode with toe clips and straps. Strapped in nice and tight. Very nice. Forgot about them until I stopped at an intersection and wanted to put my foot down. You can guess the rest.

Luke147

Thanks for sharing the pics! You are propably very tall looking on the bikes. Netherlanders are tallest people in the world, just the fact! BTW, a little off top, just to mention - I have a longing fascination regarding your country's history, especially XVII century of course. I've written even my PHD on the Netherlands cultural history

You are right about STI levers. It is subjective thing but I think bicycles looked much better way back...

Anyway, I wanted to thak you for your insights and thoughts. And you live in a beautiful country!

Luke147

And definately this second Professional looks best!

non-fixie 

Thank you. I'm not especially tall (6'1" or thereabouts), but with a 35" inseam I prefer frames in the 62-64 cm range