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Unknown! Please HELP me identify this Vintage frame!

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Unknown! Please HELP me identify this Vintage frame!

Old 04-17-19, 02:18 PM
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wedgeSG
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Unknown! Please HELP me identify this Vintage frame!









I got this at a swap meet basically for itís parts. Upon disassembly, things about it seemed odd to the point of maybe I had stumbled onto something worth saving. Frame is light for itís size. The T/A crank has odd sized extraction thread size. Derails and clamped to downtube shifters are Suntour. Lugs are kinda neat, has had a pair of horizontal rivets securing the missing headbadge. Paint looks original, (or a long ago and fairly detailed respray),yet there is evidence it started out as kind of a robin egg blue. Only stamping Iíve found is ďC.28Ē on the bb shell. Iím thinking a Raleigh of some sort but really have no idea. Maybe someone here can solve this mystery. One other thing, the front derailleur attaches to a seemingly crimped onto tube mounting ring.
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Old 04-17-19, 02:22 PM
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Zeus rear dropouts threw my guess.
Does the fork also have Zeus ends?
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Old 04-17-19, 02:36 PM
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Originally Posted by juvela View Post
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Raleigh 1971-73

chainset not original

Brampton Alatet headset original

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Wait you can't identify the exact year and the precise factory in which is was made? You're slipping,

I do have a Viking frame I need an ID on though as to which model . . . .

Last edited by bikemig; 04-17-19 at 02:40 PM.
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Old 04-17-19, 02:41 PM
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Originally Posted by bikemig View Post
Wait you can't identify the exact year and the precise factory in which is was made? You're slipping,

I do have a Viking frame I need an ID on though as to which model . . . .

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deleted me post due to error

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Old 04-17-19, 02:43 PM
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Originally Posted by wedgeSG View Post
Frame is light for it’s size. The T/A crank has odd sized extraction thread size.
TA used 23mm diameter extractor threads. Most others used 22mm diameter. An established bike shop may have the TA extractor or the original Park CCP1 double-ended tool to remove the arms. If you want your own tool, J.A. Stein makes a proper tool for TA cranks, or you can get a double-ended TA/Stronglight tool on eBay from a Polish machine shop.

I’m thinking a Raleigh of some sort but really have no idea. Maybe someone here can solve this mystery.
The Zeus dropouts and English thread bottom bracket (per knurling on the lockring) are consistent with some 1970s Raleigh models.

One other thing, the front derailleur attaches to a seemingly crimped onto tube mounting ring.
The Superbe front derailleur is unlikely to be original, but a nice mech regardless.

Last edited by JohnDThompson; 04-17-19 at 02:46 PM.
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Old 04-17-19, 02:48 PM
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Went and checked fork dropouts are indeed Zeus.
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Old 04-17-19, 03:11 PM
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------

1971 Carlton Kermesse in Lagoon Blue.

see page three in the Carlton catalogue of 1971:

http://veterancycleclublibrary.org.u...20Library).pdf

frame exhibits distinctive aerfoil brake bridge.

note rapier chainstays and Brampton Alatet headset.

constructed of Tru-Well tubeset.

-----

Last edited by juvela; 04-18-19 at 02:24 PM. Reason: addition
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Old 04-17-19, 06:47 PM
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DING ding! I believe we have a winner : 1971 Carlton Kermesse in Lagoon Blue.
(or at least a VERY confident bluff, but I am convinced!) Even got an original color thru the chips...impressive work Juvela!
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Old 04-17-19, 07:06 PM
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Carlton Frame?

On first view it screamed French to me but Bocama Medium Point lugs with Zeus dropouts suggested Brit. The crown is an early 70's Wagner No 11.



The headset with the flats, Brampton, definitely Britlandia.

I've seen very few Carltons in the steel so I don't know enough to do a quick ID.

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Old 04-17-19, 07:18 PM
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-----

One of the distinctive features of the Kermesse is the brake bridge.

Frames are constructed of Tru-Well tube set.


-----
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Old 04-17-19, 07:20 PM
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If you hang on to that TA Professional 3 pin crankset, be aware it is 116bcd. Not easy to find replacement chainrings in this size, and even harder to find rings smaller than the standard 52/42 of the time. A tip - looks for Stronglight Touring Sport (TS) rings if you need replacements. They seem to be more common than the TA equivalents and are same BCD.
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Old 04-17-19, 10:42 PM
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Concur that it's a Carlton - at first glance, it made me think of the thought of the similarly spec'ed '71-72 Raleigh Competitions, but the two-hole headbadge means either Carlton or Anniversary badge Raleigh - and it's not a Raleigh. NOTE: Boy, am I rusty.

Curious about the Kermesse model though. Most of the ones I can find are stamped dropout models w/Simplex. Another infamous equipment + dropout substitute from the masters of parts bin engineering?

-Kurt
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Old 04-18-19, 06:22 AM
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-----

The text description in the 1971 Carlton catalogue states forged ends.

See page three:

http://veterancycleclublibrary.org.u...20Library).pdf

BTW - the Raleigh Anniversary headplate is a three-holer -




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Old 04-18-19, 06:31 AM
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Originally Posted by TenGrainBread View Post
If you hang on to that TA Professional 3 pin crankset, be aware it is 116bcd. Not easy to find replacement chainrings in this size, and even harder to find rings smaller than the standard 52/42 of the time. A tip - looks for Stronglight Touring Sport (TS) rings if you need replacements. They seem to be more common than the TA equivalents and are same BCD.
-----

In addition to the T.A. Trois Attachees and Verot TS sets the Sutherland manual lists the following manufacturers of the three-arm 116mm BCD chainwheels -

Campagnolo (Sport)

Cinelli

Duprat

Durax

Gnutti

Haubtmann

Magistroni

NERVAR

Simplex

Solida

Zeus

(partial list)

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Old 04-18-19, 08:09 AM
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The serial # font is reminiscent of Raleigh/Carlton, and C would indicate 1968, but I've never seen other than 4 numerics following the letter, and have never seen a decimal point in the serial. Is there a matching serial # on the steerer?
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Old 04-18-19, 05:19 PM
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Originally Posted by USAZorro View Post
The serial # font is reminiscent of Raleigh/Carlton, and C would indicate 1968, but I've never seen other than 4 numerics following the letter, and have never seen a decimal point in the serial. Is there a matching serial # on the steerer?
-----

Thanks very much for this observation.

In the course of me explorations investigated the Carlton catalogues of 1967-68, 1968-69 & 1969-70.

The Kermesse model does not appear in any of them.

It would appear that 1971 was the launch annum for this model.

For any readers who would like to investigate the catalogues are posted here -

Veteran-Cycle Club Online Library

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Old 04-18-19, 07:58 PM
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Originally Posted by TenGrainBread View Post
If you hang on to that TA Professional 3 pin crankset, be aware it is 116bcd. Not easy to find replacement chainrings in this size, and even harder to find rings smaller than the standard 52/42 of the time. A tip - looks for Stronglight Touring Sport (TS) rings if you need replacements. They seem to be more common than the TA equivalents and are same BCD.
There were many manufacturers that used the 3-arm, 116mm BCD bolt pattern:


Source: Sutherland's 4th Edition
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Old 04-19-19, 09:14 AM
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Originally Posted by TenGrainBread View Post
If you hang on to that TA Professional 3 pin crankset, be aware it is 116bcd. Not easy to find replacement chainrings in this size, and even harder to find rings smaller than the standard 52/42 of the time...
I'm set for the remainder of my life.
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Old 04-19-19, 09:22 AM
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I'm another vote for an early 70's Raleigh, the Zeus dropouts are the tell for me. Two things: Raleigh did use the 3 bolt TA cranks on several models, and European bike builders in the 70's really lived out the phrase "specifications subject to change without notice." That bike could have been sold as a Carlton Kermesse, a Raleigh Competition, or a Raleigh Gran Sport and not being a real Raleigh fanatic probably a few other models that I'm not thinking about right now.
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Old 04-19-19, 03:50 PM
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Originally Posted by juvela View Post
-----

The text description in the 1971 Carlton catalogue states forged ends.

See page three:

http://veterancycleclublibrary.org.u...20Library).pdf

BTW - the Raleigh Anniversary headplate is a three-holer -

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I stand corrected - and thanks for the specs from the catalog. They probably mocked something else up for the pictures.

-Kurt
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Old 04-19-19, 06:18 PM
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Originally Posted by cudak888 View Post
I stand corrected - and thanks for the specs from the catalog. They probably mocked something else up for the pictures.

-Kurt
-----

Nothing wrong with your recollection.

In my explorations found several Kermesse which had been posted to venues such as blogs/fora/pinterest, etc.

Most of them had the rear mech mounted with a plate.

Also, most of them had full sloping crowns rather than the Vagner flat topper of our subject frameset.

Suspect the combination of features on this frame were only seen the one year...

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Last edited by juvela; 04-20-19 at 07:06 PM. Reason: edited for clarity
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Old 04-20-19, 06:37 PM
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Thanks to all who helped on this. Cleared up a lot... and now I really donít know where to go on it. Definitely not a disposable piece. Threw a pair of tire-free 700 wheels under it and wow is it too tall for me. Seems like it would be something worth the time and effort to rescue to someone.
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Old 04-20-19, 07:04 PM
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-----

Now that you know what she be you could list her in the for sale forum.

Alternately, you could offer to trade her something which be thine size.

All best wishes with it.

-----
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Old 04-21-19, 08:13 PM
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Actually in negotiations with a Bike Forums member now...a plan is developing.
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