Campagnolo BB spindle
 

So earlier today i had an issue with the record cranks and the 70-111 BB spindle. It caused the inner chainring to rub against the frame.

My question is can I use a 68-SS-114 or does it have to be a 70-114?

Frame is a Gios Super Record with Italian BB shell. I have the cups just need help with the spindle.

Thanks

sheldon brown says on his website he's ran campy cranks on non-campy bbs, and the other way around as well, and never really had any trouble. what you have to look out for is the crank bolt bottoming out before the arms are tight when using non-campy cranks on a campy bb (i may have that backwards, i've slept since the last time i played with this stuff). i kinda ran into this a little when putting chorus cranks on a specialized frame, but i ended up just buying an origin8 campy bb with the right spindle width.

All parts in this setup are campy including bolts.

I think better asked is if theres a huge difference between a 68ss and 70ss spindle. I figured it was only the cups tha. were different.

ooooh gotcha. my bad! my experience is limited here, and i didn't understand the question properly to begin with. sorry about that!

You will need to stick with an Italian spindle designed for a 70mm bottom bracket. If the cranks are pre 1978 then an Italian width Record spindle should be 113 mm. If later, then 115.5 mm. I assume you have "thick cups" with spiral rifling around the holes? If not, you'll need a spindle designed for them, like a GS. But all spindles would be marked "70", and not "113", etc.

Pics would help. :)

The issue with fitting for an Italian frame is that the BB shell is 2 mm wider than for the common English-style setup. What this means is that the spacing between the two planes of the two bearings is wider for the Italian one. You could argue this is mechanically a better design, but ... nobody does that, and it does't mean much for fitting. The added width is handled by the thick cups and a spindle with proportions designed for the cups. If one (the OP) does not follow the advice you've given, it could be difficult to actually adjust the bearings for play (some call this preload, but I think it's inaccurate).

If you set the two spindles on the table, you can compare the distance between the bearing races on the two spindles. The same set of cups need to enable to match that space, but the space is up to 2 mm narrower.

There could be other considerations based on pre-CPSC versus post-CPSC, but the basic issue is that the spindle is precisely sized to make a pair of bearings that can be set correctly in an imprecise (compared to bearings) bearing shell, the BB shell. The cups are sized and precisely made to match the spindle in the frame, when you use the right ones.

There is a pretty good online reference for Campy BB compatibility. I haven't used any others and was not steered wrong. It's by Greg Parker from his LLC website, Untitled document

Here's the link Vintage Bicycle Parts : Bottom Brackets.

It looks weird and may not be secure, but you're just going to look at the table at the bottom of the page given by the link. It gives selection guidelines and lists the expected results in case of mismatches. I used that table to get the year and model of the NR double on my 1980 Cali Masi, and the BB parts lined up exactly as the table said. And when I assembled them back onto the frame the arm offsets were identical left to right, the chainline was perfect, and Q was below 150 mm. I'd say some at least of what's in that table is completely correct.

There are many variables that make Campagnolo bottom brackets a hot mess. Besides the 68 and 70mm shell widths, there are CPSC-mandated design changes that appeared around 1977, "thick" and "thin" cups, "male" and "female" axles, 1/4" balls for most but 3/16" balls for Super Record and C-Record, and then a change to symmetrical spindles in the mid-80s. Campagnolo-USA's "Record News" newsletter published an article describing the issues:

http://www.os2.dhs.org/~john/campy-BB-specs.pdf

+1 for what [MENTION=20548]JohnDThompson[/MENTION] and [MENTION=164389]road[/MENTION]_Fan said above, I had the same problem as the OP with my Tommasini Prestige. I found a 116mm Record spindle on eBay that had the correct Italian BB shell spacing for the bearings and kept the drive side CPSC compliant Record spider proud of the cup face. Those thicker cups and the numerous choices in spindle configurations that have been mixed over the years can really cause some headaches. John's link the the Campagnolo newsletter is one of the best explanations and solutions there is. Sutherlands also has some good details in the relative section of the Third Edition.

Bill

Sweet mother of Tulio Campagnolo thats alot of info to process but much appreciated.

The 68 English and 70 Italian difference I understand but its the spindle length is what has me questioning spindle compatibility.

I see now theres alot more that factorss into getting the correct spindle.

Ill post pics shortly of bottom bracket

Good info above and I will only add to make it even more complex is that your 111 spindle is likely intended for use with a C Record era crank that looks like or near like this one.

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...c539d5a65.jpeg

You are correct sir. I did come across some info stating my spindle was intended for C record cranks or track.

I learned some of this the hard way... with spindles and thick/thin cups. What determines if an axle is male or female-- If it uses a bolt or a nut for the crank arm?

Correct. Most Campagnolo BB axles are "female" in that a bolt is threaded into the axle to mount the crank arms. After breakage issues with the first generation of titanium Super Record axles, Campagnolo changed the Super Record axle to a "male" axle, onto which a nut is threaded to mount the crank arms.

not enough to fully advise you as mentioned earlier the cup thickness plays in to the result. The thick cups have the internal reverse threading that helps drive out grit.
all else being equal, the 70 mm spindles have the same Overall length as their 68 mm brothers BUT the races are positioned 1mm more outboard per side, wider shell need a wider stance.

http://i.imgur.com/0PGLGZA.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/rFOrKmZ.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/WpK2pVQ.jpg

That looks like a C-Record bottom bracket, which uses 14 3/16" balls. Can you count them to be sure? If it is C-Record, your axle options are limited, as all other Campagnolo bottom brackets (except Super Record) use 1/4" balls.

68-SS-114 ? breaking down the numbers as I read their catalogs

68 is BB shell width , SS is Strada (road)

114 ? IDK that is usually rear hub width , chainline .. 120 is 5 speed

70-SS-120 would be classic 5 speed road

70-P (pista, Track ) 120 ( there were 110 wide track frames. # 17 catalog does not show any italian width

[Catalog No.17 was published in 1974]






...

From Classic Rendezvous, Mark Petry's explanation of the CPSC spindle and length/interference problems, and how to read the markings of the spindles.

Mark Petry's Primer: Some Cool-to-Know NR/SR Facts....

The 120 has nothing to do with rear frame spacing for drivelines.

From the pictures its clear that the crank arm/spider are going to hit the cup faces before the tapers bottom out and take. I too learned this the hard way:notamused: and I have a feeling that you have a mixed generation bottom bracket possibly. A C-Record spindle and a pair of Record cups maybe, or as John said, a C-Record set of cups, and perhaps incorrect balls and spindle. These get mixed together by folks that are parting out bikes and doing the ebay selling, or at jumbles.

Bill

Im figuring to use a Campy 70-SS 113 spindle with the same cups.

Ok, eleven balls makes it easier. I suspect an Athena 114mm spindle would give you the clearance you need:

http://www.os2.dhs.org/~john/camp-qu...h-spindles.pdf

Otherwise, a non-shouldered cartridge like Phil Wood would allow you to set the chainline where you need it to be.

When all this stuff was made, engineers or manufacturers were not worrying about , (or probably even imagining) a bunch of old(mostly) guys(mostjy) trying to mix and match them together half a century later. And I gotta say back then, neither was I...:rolleyes:

What markings are on your spindle? Here's my cheat sheet:


NR/SR-
Italian:
Double -Pre CPSC ('78): 113mm. Post: 115.5
Triple - Pre: 118. Post: 124

English:
Double - Pre: 112. Post: 114.5
Triple - Pre:117. Post: 123

Late-80s-90s markings:
Spc -- ≻ c - record
Ssa -- ≻ croce d'aune
Ssb -- ≻ chorus
Ssg -- ≻ athena

[MENTION=260407]jeirvine[/MENTION] spindle is marked 70-SS

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the C-Record BB used 11 7/32" balls. The Record Pista used 14 3/16".

Have we established the OP is using a C Record Crank set (or the same era lower tiered ones)?