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Holdsworth ID Help

Old 05-07-19, 08:11 AM
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Juke41
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Holdsworth ID Help

Hi All, I have a frame, which has Holdsworth transfers on the seat tube and down tube, very nice elegant frame. It has a 7 digit number on the BB and fork steerer, although slightly different are very close.
BB = 1158758
Fork Steerer = 1158777
I have gone through the database for Holdsworth frame numbers but I'm not sure that I am reading them correct, from my interpretation, it is a 1950, but I cant account for all the numbers.
Any help is much appreciated

Kind Regards

John
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Old 05-07-19, 08:20 AM
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We could use pictures of the bike as well.
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Old 05-07-19, 08:43 AM
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Holdsworth ID Help





Originally Posted by bikemig View Post
We could use pictures of the bike as well.
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Old 05-07-19, 09:43 AM
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-----

Lugset appears Prugnat 62/s.

Holdsworthy made extensive use of Prugnat for a long period.

Crown Vagner Nr. 11+.






-----

Last edited by juvela; 05-07-19 at 10:03 AM. Reason: add image
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Old 05-07-19, 01:01 PM
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Im leaning toward thinking its a Monsoon model as it has an oiler nipple on the bottom bracket, only thing is, the Monsoon seems to have very fancy Nervex lugs
Any ideas ?
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Old 05-07-19, 01:20 PM
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-----

Bottom bracket shell appears to be NERVEX "V Pattern"

Pump peg NERVEX nr. 845

Dropouts appear they may be NERVEX nr. 1010

Have you been able to identify shift lever boss?

Would guess there to be only right side.

-----
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Old 05-07-19, 06:41 PM
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Nice frame but with 7 digits and that serial number location on the BB shell I doubt this is a Holdsworth (despite the decals which look more like Holdsworth graphics of the late '70s to early '80s).
here's what Doug (the Holdsworth/ Holdsworthy serial number guru) wrote:

"Post war 5 Digit numbers and the continuation of this from 1965.
Early 60's 4 Digit numbers (1962-1964).
Shop numbers from 1965 with 1st 2 digits for the year.
Early 70's 4 Digit series (with leading zeros) including branded frames.
6 Digit System from 1976."
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Old 05-07-19, 06:54 PM
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My guess would be Holdsworth Equipe like this one that came my way years ago...
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Old 05-07-19, 07:35 PM
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Originally Posted by randyjawa View Post
My guess would be Holdsworth Equipe like this one that came my way years ago...

The Fork Crowns look different.
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Old 05-07-19, 08:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Wileyone View Post
The Fork Crowns look different.
-----

Randy's example weareth a Vagner Nr. DP, otherwise the two beasties line right up!

Suspect Randy's a bit later than our subject item.




-----
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Old 05-07-19, 08:24 PM
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The subject fork crown looks more like an pl than a dp.

The Bike looks like a Harding built Holdsworth that was posted recently. I tried a search. But came up empty.
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Old 05-08-19, 09:59 AM
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Interesting, I had forgotten about the Equipe (budget model) but there are some notable similarities (and differences, too). The OP's fork crown looks to be a model No.11+ (as Juvela noted) but what are the dropouts (compared to Randy's example with RD claw), and is there a lamp bracket on the fork blade, what about a shifter-band stop on the down tube? Lastly, did any Equipes have 7-digit serial numbers...did yours, Randy?
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Old 05-08-19, 11:23 AM
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Holdsworth ID Help

A couple of more photos, There are brazed on gear lever bosses, I am suspecting it originally came with just the one on the right side of the down tube, I think the left hand one was added later as it is very , very slightly different, this along with a cable boss on the bottom left of the down tube. This more than likely accounts for the poor paint finish.
I found the head badge in a protective box and there are rivet holes in the head tube

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Old 05-08-19, 11:26 AM
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Another thing, This is a friends that I am looking at for her, she recalls her father purchased sometime in the 50's, seems the Equipe was a 70's model, also no lamp bracket on the forks.
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Old 05-08-19, 12:04 PM
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-----

Thanks very much for the additional information.

A single plateau drivetrain would be consistent with a 1950's era machine - either that or a two plateau but with a manual front mech.

Shall look forward to reading further posts from the experts.

-----

Last edited by juvela; 05-08-19 at 03:11 PM. Reason: word
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Old 05-09-19, 02:04 AM
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Holdsworth ID Help

I did find this on one of the Holdsworth Frame Number spread sheets :-

Numbers Prior to 1959 Used upto 7 Digits, the First 2 to 4 Digits to Denote Year, in a Given Decade, and Month. Followed by an upto 4 Digit Serial Number for That Year. From 1950 the Digits are Grouped 3 and 4. See Link:-

With the frame number I have 1158758, Im struggling to work out what the above equates to, any ideas ?
It does seem there was a short period that a 7 digit number was used
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Old 05-09-19, 04:30 AM
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did any Equipes have 7-digit serial numbers...did yours, Randy?
Sorry, I was not recording serial numbers then.
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Old 05-09-19, 01:05 PM
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Originally Posted by randyjawa View Post
Sorry, I was not recording serial numbers then.
Thanks for looking into it, @randyjawa!
@Juke41 I'd wonder then if you could have one of the last 7-digit serials from maybe Nov., 1958? But still can't tell you which model from the (maybe) late 1950s used those headlugs with that forkcrown...
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Old 06-09-19, 06:03 PM
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Holdsworth ID Help

I'd be thinking this is an early 1958 Holdsworthy / Claud Butler Challenge model soon after takeover and prior to onset of new sequential serial system in 1959.

Is there an oiler on top, non drive side of BB as usual for pre 1965?

See first few Flickr albums especially original Claud Cavalier/Aspirant models and early Holdsworth/Claud Challenge frames.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/76762476@N05/albums

Doug
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Old 06-13-19, 03:18 AM
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For a CB frame with these features the 7 digit string was used in the 40's? 1950's numbers were in two blocks, date then seq number. Allowing for incorrect stamping style its difficult to interoperate as a 1940's number, pos incorrect style for July or Nov 1958. That said its totally at odds with frame numbers collected for the 50's. (I’ll see if Chris has any ideas)

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Old 06-13-19, 04:22 AM
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Originally Posted by dwscrimshaw@bti View Post
For a CB frame with these features the 7 digit string was used in the 40's? 1950's numbers were in two blocks, date then seq number. Allowing for incorrect stamping style its difficult to interoperate as a 1940's number, pos incorrect style for July or Nov 1958. That said its totally at odds with frame numbers collected for the 50's. (I’ll see if Chris has any ideas)
Hello all, I've been invited by D Scrimshaw to comment, I don’t believe that number sit within any of the Claud Butler numbering systems so I would eliminate them from the options;



1. 1928 – December 1949, Claud Butler ownership, first number = year, next = month?
2. January 1950 – October 1956, Claud Butler ownership, first two numbers = year, next = month.
November 1956 – July 1958 Receiver-ship black hole
3. January 1959 – Mid 1967, Holdsworth ownership, sequential until about 31000
4. Mid 1967 – Mid 1976, Holdsworth ownership, sequential from 50000 until about 71000
5. Mid 1976 – November 1985, Holdsworth ownership, six digits always starting with a 0


If you tried 1158758 with;

System 1, it would have to be either Jan 1931 or Jan 1941 and CB defiantly weren’t making 58758 bikes in one month!

System 2, nope, they only ever start with a 5 unless the frame stamper put the quantity before the year/month, but in any case there would need to be a three or four group beginning with 5 (eg 512=1951 Feb or 5412=1954 December)

System 3, (Holdsworth) maxed out at about 31000 bikes

System 4, Maxed out at about 71000 bikes

System 5, always started with a zero

And no it cant be November 1958 as system 2 stopped at the end of 1956.
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Old 06-13-19, 08:46 AM
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Well... all I can say is that frame looks identical to first frame we have in new sequential 1959 Holdsworthy Claud Butler system (#840) which is a typical Challenge model - Prugnat 62s lugs, Nervex BB, RD cable guide BB and identical fancy Vagner fork crown. Interesting that the prior Claud Aspirant/Cavalier model was very similar with same Prugnat 62s lugs.
Claude Butler Identification

How this frame was branded/painted up originally - as a Claud or an atypical Holdsworth frame guess we may never know. (Badge hole spacing is identical) Unless... perhaps there is evidence of original paint/decals under present paint job? Something to think about.

So... I suspect this frame is left over stock at time of Holdsworthy takeover in July 1958. Or if built by Holdsworthy as a "Claud"was stamped using what ever system was in existence prior to launch of continuing sequential system commencing for January 1959 Holdsworthy/Claud models. A puzzle!
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Old 06-13-19, 03:47 PM
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That sounds good, on that basis I have logged this one as other CB for c.1958
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