WGB 

Per ad

"Steel frame, campy headset and bottom bracket. Handle bars and stem set with arrow levers and cables. Sugino crank set with delta pedals. Campy front derailer, campy cable guides. American classic seat pin. 56cm"

My BS detector is on high alert but did notice the pink paint is over the decals and it's not a make most people would think of for a scam,.....

TenGrainBread 

The pink looks spray bombed.

WGB 

I agree about spray. Spray over decals could also be spray over a crack. Puzzled why someone would start to spray then stop, unless covering something up (crack or serial number). Can't see it being paint scrapes surely on the front of the seat tube at the BB shell?

As I said BS detector on high....

unworthy1

never seen any true Pog (even those made by Basso or Rossin) that had those Prugnat (?) headlugs or "shot-in" Victor-style seat stays. My guess is "British" not Italian, so I suggest: check the BB threading! May be a decent bike but not a Pog.

scarlson 

I'm no expert in high-end Italian frames, but I am somewhat well-versed in high-end British ones. The fastback seat lug looks like a '70s Holdsworth Mistral or Raleigh Pro. The top head lug, with those weird blunt crests/points going forward on the head tube looks like a design I've only ever seen on Holdsworth and other Holdsworth-manufactured frames from around the '70s and '80s. I've never been able to find the lug manufacturer, I always assumed it was something done just for Holdsworth.

The question remains, Why. Running a scam like that for what, a frame worth $1000 at most (and probably more like $600 right?) isn't even worth the scammer's time! Even to do half-decent decal work and paint with clear like that would require hours of prep. Long enough to realize you're doing something stupid. Plus, a Holdsworth Mistral or Raleigh Pro is not a bad bike and would sell for nearly as much (these days). If there's not a motive, I have to question whether there was a crime committed. My knowledge of lugs isn't good enough to say guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. Hung jury.

Maybe it's a prop from the film Breaking Away...didn't they decal up some fakes for that film?

Edit: @unworthy1 beat me to it! Are they Prugnat? I had that in my head but they don't quite match anything from the catalogs I've seen

WGB 

Seller wants $100. If it were a real Pog I'd definitely make the drive but he's about 1.5hrs away. I am going to email and ask for a photo of the head tube. If he replies will post here. If not him and I are done

Thanks all

WGB

scarlson 

Haw, I was way too high in my estimate. See I know nothing about the Italians. But it's worth that money for a Holdsworth Mistral or Raleigh Pro, also. I get it if that's not what you want, though.

I am fairly confident, based on my luck with British bikes, if I tried to buy an Italian bike it would turn out to actually be British. I didn't choose them, they chose me. Perhaps this Pog is meant for me. Luckily it's not my size. The threading will tell a tale. Looks like it has a sealed BB though, so it won't be as simple as reading it off one of the cups.

juvela

-----

+1

The Brampton Victor seat lug combined with this pattern Prugnat lugset screams UK.

Like other posters have na'er see'd this combination from Sante.

Expect a BSC shell.

-----

WGB 

My man! I have no issues with any Holdsworth. I believe I have one or similar - just it was repainted and now no head badge! As for a Raleigh Pro, if it one I will be all over it. They are very fine. My issue is with driving that far on a "maybe". If seller can't provide better photos I am out. Having said that if it is what you believe and it has a campy headset and "bottom bracket" - not sure what he means if it's a sealed BB, I am in.

Paletti

Mid 1980's Pog was bought out by Rossin. So if it is one it would be a Rossin example. But that does scream late 1980 color scheme.

KonAaron Snake 

One possibility is that he was on a team, or in a club, that rode Pogs, and this was painted to fit in. I mean, it's worth 100 regardless.

bikingshearer 

Creative use of the seat post. It makes it easier to achieve that extreme nose up/nose ahead of the bottom bracket saddle positioning we all crave so much.

TiHabanero

Looks to be a Raleigh frame in the close up shots of the seat cluster, dropouts and fork crown.

WGB 

Talked to the owner of the frame. He's a little nuts but says he's 72 and that he raced road bikes into the 80's. Bad connection on line and didn't say why he put on the Pog stickers. Denies it is a Raleigh but says it's a handmade British frame "over 45yrs old". He says he has a 2nd fork for the bike that is a Pogliaghi. I shall see what is going on when I get there to look at it. Will try to get there over the weekend. Bizarre doesn't cover it.

thinktubes 

Buy - at this point you're in pretty deep.

bertinjim 

WGB-


That is definitely not a Pogliaghi. That frameset has all the characteristics of a Raleigh Professional, a Carlton Professional or one of the higher end Holdsworths. The flat crown fork has me leaning towards a Holdsworth but forks are changeable. The bottle mounts and cable guides are after market from the respray but the details of the shot in seat lug suggest a Carlton product. Check the rear non-drive dropout for a serial or the bottom bracket. If a Carlton build then there should be a letter followed by 4 or 5 numerals. If it fits, you can't go wrong one this one.



https://on-the-drops.blogspot.com/20...p-raleigh.html


Holdsworth Bicycles

WGB 

Okay - still reeling from this adventure, very much like a trip to the twilight zone.

I had a bad connection when I spoke to the PO and said something about having a Poliaghi fork for it (???) and 'some other stuff"" but I couldn't follow him due to interference.

As @thinktubes said "Buy - at this point you're in pretty deep."

I met with the seller. Immediately upon exiting my truck he handed me a copy of Cycling Quarterly and said read this and if you don't you will never know anything about bikes and that even frame builders who don't read this don't know anything about bikes.

Ok.....

He claims he rode a lot, BITD. Knew Steve Bauer and named other Canadian racers going back to 60's/70's. Told me he had sold all his bikes except this one and a mountain bike.

Good so far.

We look at the bike frame (no explanation as to why he chose to add the stickers). Levers aren't Arrow, they are Suntour GPX and very scuffed so not impressed but still looking.

He claims it was a "hand made frame" and later that he recalled it was an "MKS frame" or an "MK frame". Note there is a sticker from Cycles Plus of Clarence NY which is still in business and I will call later to see if they know about it. It's possible that Cycles Plus brokered the sale of a "hand made frame" but more likely it's what folks on here deemed it to be but PO was adamant it was not a Raleigh.




Rear drops


Ht jugs from DS


HT again


TT lugs at Seat post


ST lugs


Top of BB shell with sticker from Cycle Plus


Serial might be 3878 under the paint??

WGB 

Had to do two posts as only allowed ten photos.

We talked cars and bikes for a bit and then out came a fork. PO said this 2nd fork was the original fork. Lugs aren't the same as the frame but serial # seems to be the same. Shouldn't the lugs on the fork have matched the frame?







Serial is 3878

Then out comes a 3rd fork which is chrome. he looks at it and says, "no not Poliaghi, I think it's Colnago". I can't read the writing but don't think it says Colnago and I thought Colnagos had different lugs. These clovers (there are only two) on lugs are poorly filled in with white paint and workmanship looks very very poor.....

By now I can't tell if he believes everything he says or is making it up to impress me as we go.





Do these look Colnago to you???




Workmanship doesn't look that good......

Then out comes this big blue box. PO offers everything for $25 on top of the $100. I offer my regrets and say I only have $100 US on me. PO shrugs and says take it anyway.

It's filled with various parts, mostly nice stuff, but all used (except a cheap cycling computer and some odd Campagnolo).



The short seat post is missing the side pieces for the seat lock (is that the right term?). PO says he had the Campagnolo seat post wrench at home but forgot to bring it. That would have been nice. !?*#%*%

PO then picks up the two Campagnolo boxes. He tells me that they are 980 FD and RD (which they are, I checked them) and says that the RD is worth $100 because people buy them for the jockey wheels and use them to rebuilt better Campy RD's.

I didn't photo them as they are online though I am not impressed with the finish on the RD and it seems cheaply made to me.

He says he still has a set of tubulars which weren't from the bike but which have Clement tires from France and which he swears are the finest in the world. he didn't bring them because young guys like me (I'm 56) don't ride tubulars, only old guys. !?*#%*%

By then I desperately needed a bathroom and had to go.


I may have to go back and see those tubulars and that wrench.........

WGB 

I emailed the store (Cyles Plus)


Hi
I purchased a bike from an older guy named "Gary" he said he was 72 from Hamburg. The frame has one of your stickers. "Gary" claimed the bike was a "handmade frame" and later that it was an "MK or MKS" frame". He claimed he got it 45 years or so ago. It looks like a Raleigh Professional, Carlton Professional or a Holdsworth. At some point he (or the original buyer from your store) added Pogliaghi stickers. "Gary" was vague on how they got there. The Serial number was 3878. I wondered if you recall the bike? I realize you must sell a lot of bikes but this would have been an unusual one. PS: I understand if you can't help me, I realize it's a shot in the dark. WesleyVery quick replyNo info old store was house of wheels it closed in the early 90s, sorry.


So, I guess I am back to him making it up as he went along or him truly believing what he was saying.....

T-Mar

Sounds like it may be an MKM. They had a Dominator model that used the Brampton Victor fastback seat lug and those head lugs. If so, the serial number indicates circa 1976.

WGB 

Tom
I saw your email. Is there anything you don't know?

WGB 

I should have said that the chrome forks are stamped Columbus. Can't hazard a guess who made them.

unworthy1

Yeah, well worth the efforts for quite a HAUL and I think TMar has nailed it as an MKM (3 British gents Arthur METCALFE, Ron KITCHING & Wes MASON) and no idea who made the Columbus fork (not a Colnago) but not shabby and you have 2 forks that will match the MKM when you repaint)!
You might check out this site and especially this page with "known serial numbers" listed:
https://www.mkm-cycles.co.uk/frame-numbering

bertinjim 

Like this. https://www.mkm-cycles.co.uk/

WGB 

Unworthy1. I emailed the registry. Offered photos if they desire. Cool that MKM offered 1/2 inch increments for sizing which must have made getting the right frame easier.

My question is was it an actual "handmade frame" in that they made for individuals who walked in the shop themselves or was it a "handmade frame" made in small batches and sent to specific shops? Probably not an important point just wondering.