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René Hubris Treat-a-Trek

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René Hubris Treat-a-Trek

Old 08-23-20, 07:27 PM
  #101  
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Originally Posted by scarlson View Post
I just ran across several posts in the recent Trek thread about the Ishiwata CCL fork crown causing failures. This bike is definitely an '82 according to the catalog, and that fork crown is definitely an Ishiwata CCL. It _did_ look janky and cheap compared to the rest of the bike.

This thread has a lot of hearsay and two first-hand accounts of failure.
And this post shows an actual failure. I only believe these sorts of rumors if I see them, and boy, now I've seen them!

Seems they fail as gracefully as a fork ever can. Still disconcerting. Given how much I've massaged the fork blades around, I think it would have revealed a crack if there were one existing as of now. I've ridden it hard, quite a bit, on gravel this summer. I rinko it regularly so I am always inspecting it in that area. Think that's enough? Maybe I build a fork next. What do people think? gugie?
I've owned three Treks with the dreaded Ishiwata CCL fork crown. I rode the first one for about 15,000 miles before it was stolen. The second one was ridden for about 5,000 miles and then sold in a misguided fit of Swedish death cleaning. The third is the Frek pictured at the top of this thread. It now has about 16,000 miles on it and is going strong. A good portion of my riding is on bumpy pot-holed gravel roads in the Cascade mountains. None of these three bikes ever showed any sign of cracking, and I do check for it periodically. Of course, I realize that just because my fork crown hasn't failed yet doesn't mean it won't fail some day, but I'm not terribly worried about it. There are thousands of these fork crowns out in the world, and we've heard of three that have failed. Not exactly cause for alarm as far as I'm concerned.
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Old 08-24-20, 09:31 AM
  #102  
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Originally Posted by lonesomesteve View Post
I've owned three Treks with the dreaded Ishiwata CCL fork crown. I rode the first one for about 15,000 miles before it was stolen. The second one was ridden for about 5,000 miles and then sold in a misguided fit of Swedish death cleaning.

Hoarding behavior runs in my family, and I'm deciding to embrace it!! I'm calling it "radical activist ownership" because of course the Man would rather have us rent something from him rather than pull it from our personal junkpiles. Down with big minimalism!

The third is the Frek pictured at the top of this thread. It now has about 16,000 miles on it and is going strong. A good portion of my riding is on bumpy pot-holed gravel roads in the Cascade mountains. None of these three bikes ever showed any sign of cracking, and I do check for it periodically. Of course, I realize that just because my fork crown hasn't failed yet doesn't mean it won't fail some day, but I'm not terribly worried about it. There are thousands of these fork crowns out in the world, and we've heard of three that have failed. Not exactly cause for alarm as far as I'm concerned.
Well-put. As with many things C&V, there is not enough hard data to say one way or the other definitively. I have also heard people say that this fork crown is no good because it lacks "tangs" going down the inside of the forkblades, but my Ron Cooper, Jack Taylor, Holdsworth/Claud, and old Peugeot also lack these and they are fine. I'm confident that after all the bending and shaping this fork went through, a crack would have shown itself, so I will likely just ride it and inspect it periodically (when I'm doing a rinko and I'm not pressed for time).
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Old 08-31-20, 07:07 PM
  #103  
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Now you fellows have me in full conspiracy theory mode about the CCL crown. They were OEM on the '81-83 Schwinn Superiors (Baby Paramounts), and a surprising number of those seem to pop up with completely different forks.

On the other hand, there seem to be a gazillion early 1980's Trek 600-series kicking about with the same crown - and based on what I've seen, a number of them have survived 30 years before failing.

-Kurt
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Old 11-16-21, 03:55 PM
  #104  
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To bring this thread up to date:
1. I rode 130 miles, Boston to Provincetown, a couple times on this bike. It's amazing! It really helped me rediscover the joy of distance riding. It was perfect for the covid shutdown and that whole period of very chill traffic in the boston area. I learned a lot about my cycling preferences, using this Trek as a prototype to test things out. It's the first bike I've had that's really worked with me - since maybe my mom's Raleigh Pro I rode when I was 14 or so.

2. My fork broke in June 2021, but I am fine. The VO rack actually held things together! Full thread here.
Cliffs notes pics here:




3. I made a new fork and indented the stays for 650x48 tires, took the bike for one ride, and discovered the head tube is also broken. Full documentation here, the thread starts out with someone else's failure that is exactly the same as mine.
Pics of broken headtube:


It is a one-piece headtube, which is probably why it broke. It appears that the crack was caused by a stress-riser related to the forming of a faux-lug in the one-piece headtube, and also the depth and size of the boring that had been done on it. Why did they bore it so deep, if all they needed was to accommodate the headset cup?

Now I am ordering some lugs and a headtube to replace it!

What a mess!!

I wonder if the bike will feel really stiff after I've fixed all the cracks!

At least I'll have learned how to replace tubes, by the time this all is over.
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Old 11-16-21, 04:12 PM
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Wow! I knew that on some of the very small frames they went with a one piece head tube/lug item, Surprises me on a frame that size.
Hope it did not have the full suit Reynolds transfer... Or, Trek was emulating the French volume producers.
A new set of lugs and head tube Could be grafted on. I would be thinking retirement, careful measures as I think you noted you like the bike's geometry and create a new one.
Maybe take Doug Fattic's class? Yeah, you can braze, but his approach to avoid problems is sound.
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Old 11-16-21, 06:39 PM
  #106  
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+1 on taking a framebuilding class. You had to know that braze-ons would lead to this, someday...
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Old 11-16-21, 07:24 PM
  #107  
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Can't afford right now. No time, no money. As a PhD student-worker in the life sciences, I make less than a living wage and work 60+ hours a week, with no expectation of paid time off. I was very lucky, and got a lot of favors from a lot of friends in order to get that Herse, but that was my big flex. There's not so much left in the tank, and a lot going on behind the scenes. I have to think smaller.

For now, I learn by doing. This is faster and cheaper than remaking the frame, or attempting to communicate exactly what I want a framebuilder to do, then waiting for a queue, then being upset when it's wrong because I'm a bad communicator (or I want something the framebuilder just *won't do*). Besides, I can use the machine shop here at my institution to make things easier.

I am happy to report that none of the frame failures I've had are anyplace I have brazed anything to anything else. And making the fork was encouraging and confidence-building. I am lucky enough to have Doug Fattic give me pointers on the forums now and again. I'm eternally grateful for his recommendations to switch to a better silver flux, and to flick the torch away when adding filler.

Maybe when I'm retired in 40 years, if any classes still exist (and if retirement is still a thing) I will go for it.
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Old 11-16-21, 08:24 PM
  #108  
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Originally Posted by scarlson View Post
Maybe when I'm retired in 40 years, if any classes still exist (and if retirement is still a thing) I will go for it.
I'm 16 months away from that momentous event, and am seriously considering a trip to Mssr. Fattic, if he's still in teaching mode.
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Old 11-16-21, 08:51 PM
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Originally Posted by gugie View Post
I'm 16 months away from that momentous event, and am seriously considering a trip to Mssr. Fattic, if he's still in teaching mode.
Oh, so jealous! I hope you get to do it.
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Old 11-17-21, 09:14 PM
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Originally Posted by scarlson View Post
Oh, so jealous! I hope you get to do it.
Retirement, certainly.
Class, hopeful.
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Old 11-18-21, 06:16 PM
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Tube and lugs ordered for replacing the headtube. Should be a fun learning experience!

Here are a few pics with the new fork. I've used the original Suntour droputs, and I made some braze-ons like on an old Univega or Miyata tourer to mount the rack with m6 bolts and no spacers.


I also used the fork build as an opportunity to upgrade the tire size. I have Panaracer/Pacenti Pari-Moto 650x48 tires on there now. They measure about 45mm wide in reality, but "true" 48s would also fit. The fenders are some French ones that are not Lefol but some other brand, and measure a fair bit wider, allowing me to accommodate the 48s no problem. Haven't got the rear one on there yet.


And here's a shot of the upgraded tire clearance situation in the back. I've indented the chainstays. Hopefully they don't break!
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Old 11-18-21, 06:34 PM
  #112  
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Here are some details of the fork wiring.
I have a DynoJack courtesy of southpawboston , wired to feed from the dynamo. The fender (and thus the front and rear lights) plug into one socket. The other socket is open for me to plug in a phone charger, which I'm going to put in my handlebar bag. This makes things modular, so I can plug and unplug parts whenever I want to disassemble.

Everything grounds to the frame and fork, including the SON SL hub, which I modified using safety wire, ŕ la Peter Weigle. This allows me to only have to run one wire. Also, I can ground the cell phone charger through the decaleur, making connection all the more quick and easy.

The fork has an internal conduit I brazed in place with the right blade. You can see the bottom end of it here. Apologies for the long wire wrapped around the rack. I have not decided on final wiring plans yet, so it's good to leave it a little long for now. When it's all set in place, I will wire it directly in with minimal extra wire.



I also built up an extralight 650b wheelset out of Pacenti Brevet rims and a SON SL widebody front, and American Classic MTB 225 rear hub. Probably saved a pound and a half over Ambrosio Keba/Shimano. Same spokes, Sapim Force. I don't faff around with spokes. Triple butted is the correct way.
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Old 11-22-21, 02:12 PM
  #113  
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Originally Posted by scarlson View Post
Can't afford right now. No time, no money. As a PhD student-worker in the life sciences, I make less than a living wage and work 60+ hours a week, with no expectation of paid time off. I was very lucky, and got a lot of favors from a lot of friends in order to get that Herse, but that was my big flex. There's not so much left in the tank, and a lot going on behind the scenes. I have to think smaller.

For now, I learn by doing. This is faster and cheaper than remaking the frame, or attempting to communicate exactly what I want a framebuilder to do, then waiting for a queue, then being upset when it's wrong because I'm a bad communicator (or I want something the framebuilder just *won't do*). Besides, I can use the machine shop here at my institution to make things easier.

I am happy to report that none of the frame failures I've had are anyplace I have brazed anything to anything else. And making the fork was encouraging and confidence-building. I am lucky enough to have Doug Fattic give me pointers on the forums now and again. I'm eternally grateful for his recommendations to switch to a better silver flux, and to flick the torch away when adding filler.

Maybe when I'm retired in 40 years, if any classes still exist (and if retirement is still a thing) I will go for it.
Speaking of PhD students and Doug Fattic, if you haven't run across the Two Serious Bikes blog before, I highly recommend that you pay a visit. The author has long since stopped posting and moved on into academia and more "grown-up" pursuits, but the blog is still there. Probably best to start from the beginning and read through it chronologically. Adam Hammond (the author) built some of the coolest bikes I've ever seen, anywhere.
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Old 11-23-21, 02:55 PM
  #114  
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Originally Posted by lonesomesteve View Post
Speaking of PhD students and Doug Fattic, if you haven't run across the Two Serious Bikes blog before, I highly recommend that you pay a visit. The author has long since stopped posting and moved on into academia and more "grown-up" pursuits, but the blog is still there. Probably best to start from the beginning and read through it chronologically. Adam Hammond (the author) built some of the coolest bikes I've ever seen, anywhere.
Thanks for chiming in! Always happy to hear from you on this thread, as your Frek definitely inspired me to build this thing

I read a bit of the blog. I like his writing style, and can identify with a couple of his mistakes. It is nice that he documented a few mistakes.
My burning question is, how did he have so much free time?? Maybe things really were different 10-15 years ago in academia.
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Old 11-23-21, 05:58 PM
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Originally Posted by scarlson View Post
Thanks for chiming in! Always happy to hear from you on this thread, as your Frek definitely inspired me to build this thing

I read a bit of the blog. I like his writing style, and can identify with a couple of his mistakes. It is nice that he documented a few mistakes.
My burning question is, how did he have so much free time?? Maybe things really were different 10-15 years ago in academia.
You students get summers off, right? </joking>
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Old 11-23-21, 07:38 PM
  #116  
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Originally Posted by lonesomesteve View Post
Speaking of PhD students and Doug Fattic, if you haven't run across the Two Serious Bikes blog before, I highly recommend that you pay a visit. The author has long since stopped posting and moved on into academia and more "grown-up" pursuits, but the blog is still there. Probably best to start from the beginning and read through it chronologically. Adam Hammond (the author) built some of the coolest bikes I've ever seen, anywhere.
indeed, I’ve spent many an hour reading his blog, and the bikes he made.
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Old 11-23-21, 10:38 PM
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Originally Posted by lonesomesteve View Post
You students get summers off, right? </joking>
Gawd, if I had a nickel for every time a friend or relative asked me that... only they weren't joking
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Old 01-09-22, 10:26 PM
  #118  
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Little update here. First, I replaced my cracked headtube. You can see it all here in this thread.

Here are some highlights.






SECONDLY, I recalled a ride in which I accidentally kicked my monster front derailleur while trying to clip in and pedal uphill to keep my buddy from passing me. It went badly as you might imagine. The derailleur was severely askew and locked up the cranks. I bent it back and continued the ride and everything was fine except for the crack in the fork and the head tube! Try doing that with Di2!

I had made the front derailleur without a little reinforcing diamond on the seat tube. Later Herse bikes have this feature, but my '46-'47 tandem does not. I figured it must not really be necessary. Well, I think now I know why Herse started putting it on! It was no accident or frivolous flourish, but a real necessary bit.
So as long as I had the frame in the shop, I spent 2 hours and made one and put it on.

It is cut from the (oversize) downtube of an old crashed Rockhopper, run into by a snowplow while parked. The top tube was curved like a banana. I humanely euthanized it and now it's a metal donor. Parts of it have gone into a Jack Taylor reproduction stem, as well as some other repairs and things! All you gotta do is draw the shape you want on the tubing, put on your safety glasses and ear protection, and carve away!


I made it in two pieces and brazed it on with black flux and Harris Safety-Silv 56. The idea being that if I braze it on in two pieces and am careful with heat, I won't disturb the front derailleur positioning, which is as good as I'll ever get it.


You can see the split here.



Hopefully this shores up the front derailleur enough to take the strain of an errant foot next time I fumble an uphill clip-in!
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Old 01-10-22, 01:26 AM
  #119  
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There is currently an active thread on the i-bob google group titled "show off your home made front derailleur."
.
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Old 01-10-22, 08:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Insidious C. View Post
There is currently an active thread on the i-bob google group titled "show off your home made front derailleur."
.
Interesting. Do I now need some admin approval to see that group? It would be fun to see what others have done!
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Old 01-10-22, 11:30 AM
  #121  
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Originally Posted by scarlson View Post
Interesting. Do I now need some admin approval to see that group? It would be fun to see what others have done!
forgot all about that list, now group.
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Old 01-11-22, 01:39 AM
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Originally Posted by scarlson View Post
Interesting. Do I now need some admin approval to see that group? It would be fun to see what others have done!
See if this link works for you. You may have to request to be added to the group in order to post- I don't recall exactly. Generally the topics are more discussion and fewer pics than we are acustomed to here at BF.
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Old 01-11-22, 09:11 PM
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There are instructions at the top of the group and admissions is pretty easy. It’s not as strict as Classic Rendezvous, for example. Thread drift is common. And yes, less pic-heavy than BF (another reason I love BF - so much bike porn!). It’s more of an email-based interface, much less user-friendly in the mobile world. Funny, I was going to mention that thread too, but you guys beat me to it.

You’ve done a phenomenal job documenting your progress, keep up the good work!
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Old 01-11-22, 10:58 PM
  #124  
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Originally Posted by scarlson View Post
Interesting. Do I now need some admin approval to see that group? It would be fun to see what others have done!
Just ask @smontanaro.
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Old 01-11-22, 11:13 PM
  #125  
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Originally Posted by ThermionicScott View Post
Just ask @smontanaro.
Thanks - I got approval to join yesterday
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