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Raleigh - is it a Grand Prix or a Super Course?

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Raleigh - is it a Grand Prix or a Super Course?

Old 08-06-19, 02:58 PM
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Raleigh - is it a Grand Prix or a Super Course?

Raleigh - is it a Grand Prix or a Super Course?

Leaning towards GP but checking before I pass. Obviously a re-painted frame.

Owner claims it's an aluminum frame but that doesn't seem probable. Rims appear to be aluminum and take presta valves. No shifter bosses but only GPs and Super Courses I saw came with band-on shifters. I know that Super GP's had barcons. IIRC neither had an RD mount and both used hangers. Obviously it could be a found frame with built up parts.

Have added all the photos I could get.

Any thoughts???






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Old 08-06-19, 03:15 PM
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Definitely a steel frame

Nervar Star cranks. Specced on Raleighs when Stronglight couldn't supply enough cranks during the 70s Boom (just like with Schwinn and others).

I would expect the Suntour derailleurs to be Raleigh-branded if these are the OEM mechs but I'm no expert.

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Old 08-06-19, 03:27 PM
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Good eye on the cranks, I definitely didn't see that! I also expected the Suntours to say Raleigh (if original) which, along with the repaint would fit with a frame built up with what ever was there. Still stuck on what it was originally.

Sorry Should have added Super Course Mk 2 to the possible choices.
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Old 08-06-19, 03:47 PM
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Serial number search wont help with model ID?
Just spit ballin'.
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Old 08-06-19, 03:59 PM
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WGB-

The flat plate stay caps say Super Course MK II especially when the plain lug style is factored in. A Super Grand Prix is possible but the head lugs look wrong for that and definitely not a plain Grand Prix as that would have had wrap over stay caps. Consider as well, that the MK II came with the Nervar Star as OEM fitment as a substitute for the Stronglight 93.
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Old 08-06-19, 04:11 PM
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Looks to be chrome under the rear dropouts and lower fork socks which would be consistent with a Super Course.
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Old 08-06-19, 06:00 PM
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Can't get sn as owner's son over-painted frame.

Was wondering if it was a Super Course and if it was might have grabbed it. Not sure enough value there to bother if it's an MK2, MK2 frames don't seem that popular though it has the crankset and the rim set. Owner wants $60 U.S. which might be a bit high since God knows if there is any damage under that paint job. Might go look at it and make an offer. Meanwhile I am trying to get a complete Super Course but owner hasn't returned my calls.

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Old 08-06-19, 07:08 PM
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Nervar Star is a nice crankset. One can work around the PITA 128mm BCD by using a drill to elongate the holes in a 130mm chainring (been there ... done that).
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Old 08-06-19, 07:17 PM
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As noted, MkII's usually had Raleigh branded components. FWIW.
A close of of seat stay treatment should tell, Wrap arounds should be a GP.
Or scrape the paint away on the down tube to be if the 531 decal is there.
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Old 08-06-19, 08:16 PM
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Perhaps the better question to ask:

Is the price low enough that it's worth it for the Nevar Star crankset?

Bocama lugs make me think Super Course as well. Would expect those fish-mouthed things the GP usually had (I know they're a standard pattern from a well-known lug company, but can't remember the model).

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Old 08-06-19, 08:57 PM
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What is the seat post diameter? Bocama lugs and Nervar Star don’t say Grand Prix or Super Course - I suspect it is a Gran Sport which is much nicer. Is that a 22.5-in frame? Gran Sport came in that size, GP and SC jumped from 21.5 to 23.5-in frames. I’ve seen some GS with the same crown used on SC, which is what I think I see in the pix.

GS is full Reynolds 531 butted as opposed to the 3 tube plain gauge of the SC.

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Old 08-06-19, 09:04 PM
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Grand Prix used a Bocama lug pattern but I will wait till I am on a desktop tomorrow to research it. Super Courses used Bocama 14 type II in some sizes during the oval headbadge anniversary period. Grand Sports in the classic lagoon blue and white period used Bocama lugs (I’ll track down the model number tomorrow) from ‘73-76 but with different fork crowns.
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Old 08-06-19, 09:08 PM
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Originally Posted by rustystrings61 View Post
What is the seat post diameter? Bocama lugs and Nervar Star don’t say Grand Prix or Super Course - I suspect it is a Gran Sport which is much nicer.
That's a pretty good observation there; got tripped up by the stamped rear dropouts (I keep forgetting that the Zeus and Simplex dropouts with integral derailer hangers were only seen on the early GS models).

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Old 08-06-19, 09:35 PM
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Thank you all!

I have - perhaps foolishly - become intrigued so I made an offer and said that should I buy it I will have a lot of time ahead of me locating era-correct parts followed by a lot of work building it back up and that if my offer was a bit low, that the seller could keep trying to sell but if he/she couldn't sell they could always reach back to me and that my offer would still stand.

That was before I realized that those Nevar Star cranks might be really fun to remove - see VeloBase.com - "Takes now obsolete 122mm BCD chainrings. These also took the more common english threaded removers. Be warned, earlier editions of the Nevar Star were 128m BCD and most likely have a different threading for the remover."
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Old 08-06-19, 09:47 PM
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My Nervar Star 128 bcd cranks take a standard 22 mm crank tool. There are rings out there, though sizes other than 40, 42, 52 and 54T may require going to French eBay like I just did in pursuit of a 44T ring. They are really nice overlooked cranks.

In a pinch you can modify 130 bcd c’rings to fit the 128 bcd Nervar by dremeling the holes inward 1 mm each. I’ve done it and it works and doesn’t look too bad.

if that turns out to be a full 531 Gran Sport and it fits you have a fun project to build. I keep waiting for a deal on a 23.5-in to come along at the right time.
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Old 08-07-19, 07:07 AM
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Updates - Raleigh used Bocama Professional lugs on Gran(d) Sport(s) c.1973-76. Nervar Star cranks with that funky chainguard were fitted to Gran Sports when Stronglight 93s weren't available - and I can't remember ever seeing Nervar Stars with that 'guard as OEM on any other bike. I would suggest gently trying to remove the blue and see what's under there. Based on what I think I see, I'm betting you'll have lagoon blue and white or white with lagoon blue accents.

You have the stock brakes, cranks, BB, stem and probably wheels. Those look like Normandy Sport hubs laced to Weinmann or similar 27-in alloy rims, and before the "replace all 27-in wheels with 700C for greater tire selection" chorus wakes up, a standard Panaracer Pasela 27 x 1 1/4 at 70 lbs or so is a wonderful experience. For better results, use the Frank Berto tire pressure method as programmed here and be shocked at how buttery smooth a ride you get with no real loss of speed. Service the Normandy hubs - I have been shocked by how well they really can run. The SunTour derailleurs were/are a sensible upgrade/replacement for the original Simplex stuff. The Gran Sport came stock with the Simplex Maxy, a wide-range Prestige.

The seller probably thinks it's aluminum because it's Reynolds tubing.
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Old 08-07-19, 08:24 AM
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Seller reached back and made a counter offer of $45. Will have to think about it because I have five (5) frames now, including one I have to show Bertinjim before I make any plans for new toys (and this one doesn't fit). 1st world worries.
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Old 08-07-19, 08:36 AM
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The Raleigh Grand Prix of the 70's used Carlton Crespera lugs. They are pretty distinctive, though other manufacturers made similar lugs. But the photo of the head tube in the first post shows that the bike in question does not have those lugs. Compare:

http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/...m/PB030059.jpg

Also, it does not look like this bike has the wrapover seat stays characteristic of the Grand Prix.

So the frame is not Grand Prix, and the crank is not one found on a Grand Prix. It might be a Super Course, I don't know those well enough to say. But it's not a Grand Prix.
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Old 08-07-19, 09:44 AM
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@rhm is right that it's not a Grand Prix. It's probably a Super Course but could be a Gran Sport. The derailleurs are not original. The crank probably is.
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Old 08-07-19, 09:51 AM
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Gran(dish) Sport(syish) would have forged dropouts, no?
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Old 08-07-19, 10:01 AM
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Originally Posted by madpogue View Post
Gran(dish) Sport(syish) would have forged dropouts, no?
Not the '73-76 variety - though some (I want to say 25.5-in) came with stamped Zeus dropouts with integrated derailleur hangers. Most of them came with dropouts similar to those used on Super Courses. I think the early ones from the late 60s-72 used Huret forged rear ends, like the ones used on Competitions, but there weren't too many of those.
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Old 08-07-19, 11:30 AM
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Originally Posted by rhm View Post
The Raleigh Grand Prix of the 70's used Carlton Crespera lugs. They are pretty distinctive, though other manufacturers made similar lugs. But the photo of the head tube in the first post shows that the bike in question does not have those lugs. Compare:

http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/...m/PB030059.jpg
My probably 68 Super Course uses the Crespera lugs. Lots of folks call them Bocama but my research makes me pretty sure they are Crespera.
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Old 08-07-19, 12:07 PM
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I saw that listing too and I'm intrigued by it. If you don't want it, let me know. I can also swing by and pick it up for you if you wish.
-Dan
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Old 08-07-19, 12:22 PM
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What's going on with the dropout with the derailleur claw on it. Is that dirt? Shadow? Crack?
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Old 08-07-19, 03:29 PM
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Originally Posted by USAZorro View Post
What's going on with the dropout with the derailleur claw on it. Is that dirt? Shadow? Crack?
Ouch. I think yes, run away!
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