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Was there a "Jump the Shark" moment for high flange hubs?

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Was there a "Jump the Shark" moment for high flange hubs?

Old 08-14-19, 11:25 AM
  #26  
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@ksryder is right about the proper use and abuse of the term jump the shark.

It was in about 1975 or 1976 when I asked a bike shop owner why low flange hubs were coming into style. He said they give a softer ride since the spokes of the wheel are longer. Of course, that is bunk, but the bike world believed it for a long time, and some still believe it. I don't know why Merckx preferred them, and it's possible for anyone to come up with a belief like this and believe they feel the difference, even a highly competent champion. Jobst Brandt measured the forces going on in bicycle wheels, and he pointed out that that the tension is along the length of spokes, not across them like a diving board. The size difference between high and low flange hubs is negligible, too. Most importantly, even if one wheel is radially stiffer than another, the difference is lost in the compliance of a pneumatic tire.

I am also among those who think high flange hubs look better, not because I think they ride better or worse.
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Old 08-14-19, 11:25 AM
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I'll see your bacon slicer and your cheese shredder, and raise you a Maxi-car!


The old Frenchies tell me that the purpose of high-flange hubs in the old randonneur sphere had a practical aspect. You can change a broken spoke with the freewheel on the wheel - and the wheel still on the bike! With a double walled rim, you won't even need to deflate the tire.

There is also a drum brake on the other side, but that only accounts for one of the flanges being so high. These are riveted flanges. René Herse made some himself as well. Some low-flange Maxi-car hubs had keyhole spoke holes so that the spokes could be removed that way, again without removing the freewheel.
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Old 08-14-19, 11:28 AM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by steelbikeguy View Post
wait a second, you can't drop that kind of bike porn in our laps and not tell us anything about it!!

is it new or vintage?
Who made it?
how did you get it?

The whole "let's rivet some big flanges to a hub shell" thing is a curious style of hub, and is something I was searching for when I offered the Harden Bacon Slicers as an example. Thanks for reading my mind and coming up with an answer!

Steve in Peoria

There's two guys that I know of that are doing the super big flange blingie hubs - Curtis Odom, who typically starts with a big block of aluminum and turns them down, and Amir Avitzur, who does the rivet thing. These are obviously riveted, so they're from Amir. I bought them second hand from eBay.

The hubs are on my Pimp Eroica Gran(d) Sport(s) bike. I built this up out of a frame that I had repainted (well, powder coated), then had fun with it. English frame, mostly period correct french bits. Drillium chainrings and brake levers, gold colored brakes, gold colored freewheel...I feel like I should be wearing a big gold chain around my neck when I ride it. Here's my Flickr album of the build. I've riden it on the last two Eroica's and will come with me to Cino this year.

You find these riveted type hubs right after WWII. Maybe the machining tools to mill the big flanges wasn't readily available, more likely raw material was scarce, so turning down a small flange hub out of smaller stock, then machining the flanges out of plate was more cost effective.
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Old 08-14-19, 11:40 AM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by gugie View Post
You find these riveted type hubs right after WWII. Maybe the machining tools to mill the big flanges wasn't readily available, more likely raw material was scarce, so turning down a small flange hub out of smaller stock, then machining the flanges out of plate was more cost effective.
I have also heard that the French manufacturers making this style of hub believed that forging was the absolute best mode of construction for the hub barrels from a strength standpoint, and would invest in one set of forging dies for all their hub barrels of a given length, and rivet on whatever flanges. Even small flange Maxi-Car hubs were done this way, albeit with flush rivets (thanks aircraft industry) so it's harder to notice or tell. Modularity also makes sense for mid-scale production. Reduces machining steps but maintains comparable versatility to machining the whole thing. Pre-CNC, this is important.

And those really large riveted flanges are not concentric, let me tell you. Doesn't really matter, as long as you compensate when truing the wheel. It's like they did the flange on a mill with a rotary table and then just slapped it on there.

Modern day, I'd be tempted to waterjet cut the flanges from sheet, and rivet them to Shimano hub barrels, which are forged and cheap and reliable and serviceable. Sadly, in my opinion, boutique machined hubs jumped the shark in terms of unnecessary "features" sometime in the early 2000s, but nobody seems to have noticed or cared.

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Old 08-14-19, 12:02 PM
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Originally Posted by scarlson View Post
Sadly, in my opinion, boutique machined hubs jumped the shark in terms of unnecessary "features" sometime in the early 2000s, but nobody seems to have noticed or cared.
Yeah, but bacon tastes good.

;-)
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Old 08-14-19, 12:17 PM
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Originally Posted by gugie View Post
Yeah, but bacon tastes good.

;-)
Oh, I agree with fashion, that's not what I have beef with. Who can argue with bling, after all? I know I ride faster on a good-looking bike, just because I don't wanna let the thing down by being slow.

My problem is the unnecessarily thick axles at the expense of smaller bearings, the loud, unreliable ratchets, the cantilevered axle that I thought we got away from by getting freehubs, the play adjustment controlled with a setscrew, or worse yet, with nothing at all. I've had Hadleys and Whites and Phils and some off-brands and they're all the same, beautiful but at what cost! I keep coming back to old reliable Shimano, even though they are pedestrian.

In fact, I have half a mind to draw up the CAD and bug my buddy to run me off a few large-flanges to rivet onto Shimano hubs. I've tried to put magneto bearings and dual labyrinth seals in an old XT rear hub, but sadly that is impossible without machining and hardening a custom bearing race at least on one side.
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Old 08-14-19, 12:56 PM
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Originally Posted by gugie View Post
Yeah, but bacon tastes good.
Hey, sewer rat may taste like pumpkin pie, but I'd never know cause I wouldn't eat the filthy mother***s.
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Old 08-14-19, 01:10 PM
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I associate high flange hubs with track bikes, sometime around the mid-thirties is when the boom started. The riveted Airlite was prewar, later versions the flange was pressed on. Harden made drilled and non-drilled versions, the non drilled version “bacon slicers” made the most sense because the point was for lateral stiffness on banked tracks, also the reason for tied and soldered spokes. When they started removing material for lightness they lost the stiffness, hey but they looked really cool. The Harden is a one piece hub with sealed bearings, amazingly I was able to find new replacements that fit hubs from the forties. They did make a cup and cone version as well called the Flywate.
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Old 08-14-19, 01:35 PM
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I prefer my hubs highly flangulated when possible, thanks.
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Old 08-14-19, 01:46 PM
  #35  
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All my vintage bikes have high flange, mostly Campy. The dates of my bikes are 1961 Legnano to 1978 Peugeot and Raleigh. The Peugeot has Normandy and the Raleighs have been upgraded to Campy. They are great riding wheels, and I can't imagine riding other than high flange on vintage. I also have a modernish 2013 carbon Culprit with disc brakes, and Token wheels with high flange hubs, though they are all black. They look better in shiny aluminium.

My fave, Campy high flange, these are on my '73 Super Course.


Normandies on the '78 Pug.

My '64 Legnano with Legnano branded Campys.

These were tossed in with a barn find bike I bought. They even look good, dirty. Don't know who cut the spokes😡

These came on my '64 Legnano.



Modern carbon with Token black high flange hubs, carbon rims. Hgh flange lives!

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Old 08-14-19, 02:13 PM
  #36  
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Addition to above post.

Normandy 78 on my Peugeot. Not as pretty as Campy, but still roll pretty well.

Normandy front on the Pug.

Modern Token high flange. Rear is high/low, front is high flange both sides.
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Old 08-14-19, 03:26 PM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by gugie View Post
There's two guys that I know of that are doing the super big flange blingie hubs - Curtis Odom, who typically starts with a big block of aluminum and turns them down, and Amir Avitzur, who does the rivet thing. These are obviously riveted, so they're from Amir. I bought them second hand from eBay.
neat!
I'm familiar with Amir from the CR list, but didn't realize he was making these. The CR list (and probably BF) is full of guys who do amazing work but keep a low profile.


Originally Posted by gugie View Post
The hubs are on my Pimp Eroica Gran(d) Sport(s) bike. I built this up out of a frame that I had repainted (well, powder coated), then had fun with it. English frame, mostly period correct french bits. Drillium chainrings and brake levers, gold colored brakes, gold colored freewheel...I feel like I should be wearing a big gold chain around my neck when I ride it. Here's my Flickr album of the build. I've riden it on the last two Eroica's and will come with me to Cino this year.
That is some serious pimping of a humble Grand Sport!
The drilled hubs, chain rings, and brake levers do tie the parts together, though. Very cool!

The discussion of riveted flanges reminds me that I did see some at the 2015 NAHBS. there was a bike at the Speedhound booth with this style of hub.
Again, it was a show bike, so the flanges were blue and brass washers were used under the spoke heads.
The flanges weren't outrageously large or perforated with dozens of holes. For a show bike, it was only moderately over the top.
No idea who made the hubs... might have been the frame builder, I suppose.







Steve in Peoria
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Old 08-14-19, 03:42 PM
  #38  
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I always liked high flanges myself. This thread is generating some awesome eye candy for sure.

My tastes can be low brow. I always had a strange affection for the modest Campy Tipo high flange hubs.


(Photo linked from Velobase/Kommisar89)

I guy in my club BITD had the campy hi/low hubs. I thought those were super cool at the time. Maybe that's why I ride White T11 hubs now; they're the modern version.

Originally Posted by Slightspeed View Post

These were tossed in with a barn find bike I bought. They even look good, dirty. Don't know who cut the spokes😡
That's just sad when that happens.

With humongous amounts of determination, you could probably still get that freewheel off.
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Old 08-14-19, 03:43 PM
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I always liked high flanges myself. This thread is generating some awesome eye candy for sure.

My tastes can be low brow. I always had a strange affection for the modest Campy Tipo high flange hubs.

(was going to link a photo, but can't do that with bb tags anymore evidently)

I guy in my club BITD had the campy hi/low hubs. I thought those were super cool at the time. Maybe that's why I ride White T11 hubs now; they're the modern version.

Originally Posted by Slightspeed View Post

These were tossed in with a barn find bike I bought. They even look good, dirty. Don't know who cut the spokes��
That's just sad when that happens.

With humongous amounts of determination, you could probably still get that freewheel off.
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Old 08-14-19, 03:54 PM
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Originally Posted by gugie View Post
Amir Avitzur, who does the rivet thing.
He will also do press-fit like 3-piece FB or Campagnolo.
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Old 08-14-19, 04:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Salamandrine View Post
I always liked high flanges myself. This thread is generating some awesome eye candy for sure.

My tastes can be low brow. I always had a strange affection for the modest Campy Tipo high flange hubs.

(was going to link a photo, but can't do that with bb tags anymore evidently)

I guy in my club BITD had the campy hi/low hubs. I thought those were super cool at the time. Maybe that's why I ride White T11 hubs now; they're the modern version.



That's just sad when that happens.

With humongous amounts of determination, you could probably still get that freewheel off.
I haven't even touched it yet. I was thinking large quantities of PB Blaster and patience, and maybe squeezing the flange "gently" in my wood jawed workmate table vise.
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Old 08-14-19, 04:15 PM
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Originally Posted by cudak888 View Post
Because C&V'ers wanted modern high-flange hubs and were willing to pay for them. These two brands delivered.

Both of those products were introduced to the market less than 15 years ago; they didn't continue the trend through the eras.

-Kurt
American Classic have been selling high-flange hubs for at least a decade. Never intended for C&V.
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Old 08-14-19, 04:18 PM
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Originally Posted by iab View Post
American Classic have been selling high-flange hubs for at least a decade. Never intended for C&V.
True, but IIRC, they weren't responsible for the Grand Bois or Sun hub production, right?

Either way, AC has always been a bit of a boutique brand that never necessarily followed the trend, wouldn't you say?

-Kurt
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Old 08-14-19, 04:46 PM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by cudak888 View Post
True, but IIRC, they weren't responsible for the Grand Bois or Sun hub production, right?

Either way, AC has always been a bit of a boutique brand that never necessarily followed the trend, wouldn't you say?

-Kurt
I was reading AC's site looking for a clue, couldn't find one. I am only familiar with when I wanted a high-flange set for my off-topic bike 10 years ago, so I can't speak to following trends. I do recall other companies other than GB, Sun and AC selling high flange then, I just chose AC.
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Old 08-14-19, 04:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Slightspeed View Post
I haven't even touched it yet. I was thinking large quantities of PB Blaster and patience, and maybe squeezing the flange "gently" in my wood jawed workmate table vise.
I don't think anything gentle enough to not damage the flanges is going to work.

Cleanest method would be to take apart the freewheel body, build a temporary wheel, and then either get the freewheel back together in place, or just place the body in a vise and torque it off in the usual way.

You might be able to cut the freewheel body off with a dremel wheel if you are very very careful. Obviously it would be risky. The idea is to cut just not quite through, and then force it open enough to unscrew easily.

There are other hare brained schemes that would probably work.
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Old 08-14-19, 05:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Slightspeed View Post
I haven't even touched it yet. I was thinking large quantities of PB Blaster and patience, and maybe squeezing the flange "gently" in my wood jawed workmate table vise.
Don't do that.

Lace the outer flange to a junk rim. Use whatever spokes you can find, and stick them in whatever holes to get them roughly radially laced and tensioned enough to somewhat suspend the hub and make it resistant to rotational force.

Then try removing the freewheel normally. If it doesn't work, keep playing around with the spoke arrangement until you can get it strong enough. Keep at it. It will work.

Been here, done that.

-Kurt
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Old 08-14-19, 05:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Slightspeed View Post
I haven't even touched it yet. I was thinking large quantities of PB Blaster and patience, and maybe squeezing the flange "gently" in my wood jawed workmate table vise.
I think I would use two identical 1/2" thick (or so) sheets of somewhat soft wood (cut to the same outside perimeter dimensions). One slotted just enough to slip past the center of the inside portion of the hub, with a center hole just big enough to clear the cone area of the hub. The second block I would cut a hole big enough for the outer concave cone area portion of the hub. Then, I would drill matching holes for bolts, maybe one in each of the jelly bean cutouts on the free flange of the hub thru both pieces of wood simultaneously. Then some more bolt holes about an inch or so outside of the flange perimeter. Then, I would bolt the two pieces of the wood together, over the free flange, carefully tensioning the bolts until the wood made ample contact around and with the flange of the hub. Then, I'd clamp the wood in a vise, and see if I could get the free wheel loose. The idea is to obtain enough clamping force between the wood and the flange to provide resistance to break free the freewheel, yet not transfer any of that load directly to the hub. The wood provides the "sacrificial" barrier to carry the load, and not the hub.
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Old 08-14-19, 05:41 PM
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Originally Posted by St33lWh33ls View Post
I associate high flange hubs with track bikes, sometime around the mid-thirties is when the boom started.
1930's one piece tandem track hubs, machined out of billet aluminum by Doc Morton. The outside of the flange have a steep angle to maintain stiffness, You can see the thickness of the flange in the cutouts, not very far from the spoke holes.
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Old 08-14-19, 08:08 PM
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Originally Posted by clubman View Post
1930's one piece tandem track hubs, machined out of billet aluminum by Doc Morton. The outside of the flange have a steep angle to maintain stiffness, You can see the thickness of the flange in the cutouts, not very far from the spoke holes.
Man those are stout, make the Hardens look flimsy.
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Old 08-14-19, 08:43 PM
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Originally Posted by St33lWh33ls View Post
The Harden is a one piece hub with sealed bearings, amazingly I was able to find new replacements that fit hubs from the forties. They did make a cup and cone version as well called the Flywate.
Just wanted to thank you for this - I'm now filled with ideas for a 650B build...

-Kurt
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