nomadmax 

Yes it has been re-sprayed in places and there are other parts of the frame that have this cracking, many places actually. I'm not quite sure how the seller avoided them in the secondary photos. What is your opinion on the larger of the two dents? By design? The smaller dent is in my opinion chain suck but I just don't know about the larger one.

embankmentlb

I Agree. It looks like the bottom bracket area has been re-sprayed. Possibly the paint was not compatible with the original finish causing the crazing. The dent in the chain stay is a bit of an odd one also.
All things that are fixable but all things that should have been disclosed before the sale.

xiaoman1 

It looks like there is "crazing" on all of the paint and might be a respray as evidenced by the chip that was painted over in the OP's 2nd pic...
The paint seems very thick as mentioned around the BB and could be Bondo or something like a body putty. Soap was suggested as a means to check for cracks, if it were mine I would use an Exacto Number 2 and do some exploration.
Even if you have to do a touch-up your peace of mind would be worth it.
Best, Ben

Johno59

Put all your weight on one pedal and jump around a bit. The very best steel bikes swing flex a considerable amount under load (that's why they are more comfortable to ride) Any cracks in the BB shell will be obvious.

speedevil 

Rather than using the BB, crankarm, and pedal spindle to try to flex the BB shell, especially since you've pulled the BB out, just use a garden rake handle. The wood won't damage the threads and you'll be able to flex it in any direction you want.

Ideally, have a friend flex the BB shell, and use your finger to feel for any movement. Your finger is more sensitive to movement than your eyes can discern.

embankmentlb

In the BB area I can see some of the original paint under the new paint.
Could the entire bike have been cover sprayed with non compatible paint or clear coat???
That is what it looks like to me.
Would it be possible to chemically remove the new paint leaving the old?

delicious 

Thanks for the info - and great job on the design.

I was particularly interested because I thought it was a Gainesville, FL team.

delicious 

I agree that it looks like the PO sprayed the frame with a thick clear coat that yellowed and cracked with age.

merziac

@nomadmax,

Hope this works out, that of course will be up to you. Challenges like this can always be a valuable learning experience, perceived or not. They widen your scope and expand your critical thinking which can be invaluable later when applied to other challenges.

Make it so.

nomadmax 

Thank you all for the suggestions and help. I just got back in from a bike ride where I mulled over my experience with the seller, the overall poor condition (not as described) and the undisclosed damage to the right chainstay. I've contacted the seller for a refund and will personally deliver it to him, possibly this weekend. Again, thanks for the help, this place is the greatest.

Last ride 76 

Glad he agreed to the refund, best of luck.

scarlson 

I think you've made the right decision. That frame looked like something I would commute on - a once-great machine, now unfit for public consumption due to damage!!

t_e_r_r_y

the dents look like really bad backpedal chain suck. i saw something similar happen to a guy's bike years ago - he was wearing baggy pants and they got caught in the chain, he tried to back pedal out of it but the chain sucked down and got all jammed between the sprockets and chain stay. he ended up having to cut his pants out of the chain and put a pretty nasty dent in the chain stay, not unlike the one on this bike.

CliffordK

I agree that sending it back intact is likely the best course of action.

I'd hate to be a seller, and have someone strip half the bike, then send it back as a mess.

On the other hand, I wouldn't sell a bike that I couldn't stand behind 100% (99.9%). So, the first step would be to strip the paint on the bottom bracket.

Come up with a reasonable value beforehand on what to do if one finds:

• Bottom Bracket Cracked
• Tubes Cracked
• Etc.
• NOTHING... Everything OK

cudak888 

Concur with everything above, though I'm not sure those dents are chain suck; would have expected them at the bottom if so. At any rate, it's a terrible repaint and the whole BB area just doesn't smell right.

Not something I'd touch without a price that'd make experimentation for the sake of fooling about with it feasible. You made the right decision.

-Kurt

t_e_r_r_y

yeah, that's why they looked like back pedal chain suck to me. i probably wouldn't have even thought that a thing if i hadn't seen it happen once before in real time.

verktyg 

@nomadmax did you say that the frame is made of Columbus Aelle or regular Columbus (judging from the tubing sticker)?

Most of the Guerciotti frames that we sold back in the 70's were 56cm to 60cm and they were made with Columbus SL tubing. The larger sizes were probably made with Columbus SP tubing.

Until about 1980, the Columbus SL chain stays had a wall thickness of 0.7mm. There were lots of frames made with those tubes that suffered cracks or breaks in the left - non drive side chain stays.

In 1980? Columbus increased the wall thickness of SL chain stays from 0.7mm to 0.8mm. Aelle chain stays were 0.9mm wall thickness.

A strong rider having the chain come off during a hard sprint or honking out of the saddle could have easily caused those dents when the chain jammed between the chain stay and the chain ring. Thin wall chain stays can dent easily.

@t_e_r_r_y either situation could have resulted in enough back pedaling to jam the chain.

I've had a chain bounce off and jam a number of times over 55 years of riding derailleur bikes. It shouldn't happen with a proper FD properly adjusted but it did.

I have a number of old frames with dents in the DS chain stays but they are in the center line of the tubes. It doesn't affect the ride or handling and the dents are hidden behind the chain rings.




Just one more thing.... DayGlo paint contains a high amount of pigment and requires a protective clear coat to last. It's usually been flat or low gloss. Back in the 60's a lot of US military aircraft were sprayed with DayGlo "International Orange" paint, especially for training and search and rescue uses.

High gloss clear coat could shrink a lot more when covering that high pigment content paint causing the cracking.

I have 2 frames that I built back in 1992 that I had Ed Litton spray for me using DayGlo paint with additional non fluorescent pigment. The top clear coat contained a small amount of pearlescent material.

They still look great but they're stored in a dark area to prevent fading.






verktyg

ryansu 

I think you will sleep well at night OP good decision and thoughtful process to determine what the best course of action was, some old folks might call that wisdom

qcpmsame 

Agreed 100%, wise choice @nomadmax

Bill

nomadmax 

@verktyg

Yes sir, the tubing is Columbus SL based on a couple of things I know about Guerciottis of this era. The BB shell on the Aelle tubed bikes have a couple of slots in the bottom as opposed to the star the SL and SLX bikes have. The fork steerer tube has rifling in it, the Aelle bikes do not. As always, you're a wealth of information (as are many others around here) and that's the reason I know anything around here

Edited to add:

Here's the irony. The seller had been contacted by a forum member here who actually did the design work on the team bikes. After the conversation, the seller believed his bike was made of Aelle tubing as is the other example in this thread. I found out that there were two versions of the bike, some in Aelle and others in SL. After seeing the SL sticker and asking what cut out was on the bottom of the BB (a star) I told the seller his bike was made of a better grade of tubing and adjusted the price to reflect it. Everyone wants a great deal but I don't want one so bad that I'll trade my integrity for it.

mpetry912 

I think this whole story is a learning experience about not getting overly swayed by a seller's hyperbole ("rare", "appraised value" etc) and doing your due diligence before buying. there are diamonds in the rough out there ! Somebody on CR just picked up a Raleigh pro for $150 bucks BUT it came from a thrift store and he had the chance to look at it.

On ebay you have a couple pictures and you have to evaluate not only the bike but also the efficacy of the seller! I have seen some ebay auctions where the seller is clearly hiding something. So it pays to do your homework and manage your risk. I sure wouldn't pay collector's money for a bike based on blurry cell phone pics, or that I had any questions about. As bike experts we learn, like people who trade horses or cars, what a good one (or a bad one) looks like, and make our decisions accordingly.

I'm glad the OP was able to get his money back. This was an interesting thread.

Mark Petry
Bainbridge Island, WA USA

nomadmax 

UPDATE

The seller and I conversed via email and he offered to refund the entire purchase price (not including shipping) and let me keep the bike. I told him that taking something for nothing is stealing in my book so I countered with the maximum amount I would have offered/paid had I driven down and seen the frame issues firsthand (meaning he adjusts down the amount he sends me). He really stepped up in my book and I give him credit for doing something many people don't want to do these days, the right thing. Apparently, he lives by the same code I do; my good name is worth more to me than ANY amount of money.

When the transaction is complete, I'll strip everything off the frame, take loads of photos for paint and decal placement, then take it up to Franklin Frame here in Ohio. I'll know more after he assesses it and gives me his determination. Suffice to say, this frame and fork will live to ride again, albeit with modern components as it will be in the regular riding rotation.

embankmentlb

That is awesome!
I am also emotionally invested in your Guerciotti. It is great that this situation has worked out for the best.
Please keep us posted on the progress.

merziac

Excellent! I love it when this happens, the best possible outcome, work it out, drill down, get it fixed and ride on.

merziac

IMHO It's all about tempering and wrangling your expectations. We all like to think it's not too good to be true but the reality is that it usually is.

If you are realistic, often hard to do, going in, then you can do ok, if not, well buyer (you) beware, mainly of yourself.