noglider 

I heard an interview with Dave Moulton on The Outspoken Cyclist podcast. Moulton is one of the all-time great British frame builders and is in his 80s now. He said using modern components on old steel frames gives you the best of both worlds, and I pretty much agree. There is a long-running thread of bikes we have updated with brifters and other modern stuff. A period-correct bike is nice, too, of course.

mpetry912 

That's a great one Tom ! So true ! One of my all time favorite bikes which I rode for 20 years was this "Wizard" built by Brian Baylis and Mike Howard back in the 70s. Wizards have quite a following among collectors but back in 1998, it was just an old bike, similar to a Masi GC. I bought it for 400 bucks, complete bike. It went back to Brian for an incredible paint job in "Laser Purple" and I put on a Campy 9 speed gruppo which was current issue at the time. Rode it for 20 years, and it always got admiring looks and comments. And you want to know the best part ? I sold the frame last year for 3000 bucks ! The new owner was very happy to get it.

This bike had a story, it had panache, it had road feel, it was always a pleasure to ride.

Brian visited us for a weekend here on Bainbridge Island in 2003, spending a day with him looking at Masis (at Bob Freeman's bike event) was hugely instructional. He was a master. I really miss him.

Mark Petry
Bainbridge Island, WA USA

RobbieTunes

I think that's from the meth.

RobbieTunes

Agreed, Tom. A really good frame may have been better than anything you could hang on it during the era it was made. Lighter, quicker components can bring out the real potential in a good frame. I've done this more than a few times and have yet to be disappointed. I keep friction and DT stuff around, because it's fun and makes me a better rider overall, but goodness, yes, hot rodding goes back a long, long way.

Ellis Cycles showed a sub-16 lb. lugged steel bike at NAHBS Austin, with the 50th Anniversary 7700 group on it.
Holy cow did I want to ride that.
Swap in a really good "production" frame and you have a sub-19 lb. lugged steel bike, a real gamer.

Heck, if I could fit on @RiddleOfSteel's bikes, and I knew where he hid the key, I'd plunder his palace for his priceless performance platforms.

RiddleOfSteel

The dark side of the Dark Side has got to be brifters with electronic shifting. Talk about not wanting to go back (I have a Shimano Di2-equipped vintage bike and the shifting is sublime, let me tell you).

I have run all the major shifting system types, and like them for their various reasons. Still, if you can score good stuff for a good/great price, brifters are worth the hassle.

Side note: this thread needs more pictures, and I intend to oblige.

1974 Paramount with ~2013 Campagnolo Athena 11-speed EPS. She's running 3x10 Dura-Ace, brifter style right now, but this EPS setup is calling me back.

J.Higgins 

I bravely brifted in me breeches.

canklecat

Stick with the Shimano downtube shifters. You probably won't like the Suntour Accushift in friction mode. If it's anything like the Suntour GPX group, the friction mode is a kludge that feels nothing like good purpose-made friction shifters. The washers are slippery plastic. There are no micro-click indents to resist slippage, let alone fancypants retrofriction design. Heck, even SunRace's dirt cheap SLM10 stamped metal and plastic thumbies shift better. I tried friction mode in the GPX setup for several months and never could eliminate ghost shifting in both front and rear derailleurs.

And you'd need a compatible Suntour rear derailleur, and freewheel and chain. SunRace freewheels and KMC chains worked much better for me than the original Suntours.

Shimano would offer more choices in readily available and affordable new bits and pieces.

Only reason I wanted to try friction mode with Accushift was to accommodate an old pre-SIS Shimano 600 RD while I was modifying the Suntour GPX rear derailleur to reduce friction. And with friction mode shifting was less picky about freewheels, so I could switch between Suntour, SunRace and Shimano freewheels while deciding on a permanent gear setup.

But whenever I'd stand to pedal the bottom bracket flexed just enough to mess up alignment and the RD would creep or ghost shift at the worst possible time in a climb. If I cranked down the shift lever tension screw enough to minimize creeping, I practically needed two hands to move the lever.

GPX Accushift works great in index mode when combined with the right freewheel and chain (meaning *not* Suntour -- it works best with SunRace MFR-30 13-25 or MFM-30 13-28 chromed freewheels; and with a KMC Z-72 or comparable chain designed for index shifters). But it's the worst friction shifter I've ever used.

non-fixie 

That's an interesting comparison, and FWIW, I like both: automatic and manual transmissions in cars and downtube shifters and brifters on bikes.

Just not on the same bikes / cars.

In a sports car I want a manual transmission, so I can have maximum control (and not a mid-corner up-shift when driving on the limit, for example). My daily driver I never drive on the limit, and I prefer it with an automatic, because my mind is usually on other subjects than spirited driving.

It's more or less the same with bikes. On my old racing bikes I have downtube shifters, because they're light and elegant and give me a sense of occasion at every shift. When I am touring with mrs non-fixie I have other things to attend to as well, and appreciate the ease of use of brifters.

canklecat

Regarding brifters, it introduces a whole nuther set of bike fit challenges. Found that out this year. I switched a nice older Trek 5900 from aero style brakes and downtube shifters to brifters. It changed the fit so much it took me months of methodical experimenting and parts replacements to make the bike fit me properly again.

First problem was brifters extended the already elongated reach. The original stem is something like 140mm, way to long for my creaky old neck with C1 and C2 damage. It wasn't too bad with the original brakes, but awful with brifters.

After a few months of trying different bars, angles, etc., I finally replaced the stem and bar with a 90mm stem and compact drops. Much better now. And I double wrap the bars for comfort on rough roads, but it also affects bike fit. The thicker handlebar tubes and double wrapped thick tape reduce reach slightly. Fine with me.

If a bike is already comfortable with the original downtube shifters and old school brakes, it might be better to keep it that way. That's what I've done with my Ironman. Now that it's dialed in I don't want to change anything.

The main reason I wanted brifters on the Trek was to keep up better with sorta-fast club rides. Our roller coaster terrain has lots of short, steep punch climbs. I'm not a strong climber and I always found myself falling farther and farther behind. I'd study the other riders and noticed their brifters enabled them to shift more seamlessly and maintain a comfortable cadence and effort, while I was tiring little by little over the course of 50-60 mile rides.

With brifters I can shift while standing. Big advantage for me, keeping me in the sweet spot for cadence and effort.

So it was worth the trouble to tweak and replace bits and pieces on the Trek until I got the fit just right. Makes that bike just a little more enjoyable for longer spirited solo or club rides on roller coaster terrain. It's a little lighter than the Ironman, easier to shift quickly, etc. But it's not quite as comfortable as the Ironman, mostly due to differences in frame flexibility.

Wileyone 

This is a nice Bike but it verifies my opinion on brifters. All those extra cables clutter up the front end. Taking away the clean lines of a DT shifted Bike. As modern as I go is Dura Ace 7700 with DT Shifters.
Or then again maybe it's just the Meth...

mpetry912 

carrying the metaphor / attribution a little farther... DI2 is like paddle shifting ! Don't get me wrong, I still like a clutch (even a crashbox, like Hewland LG400, where your heel and toe/double clutch/match revs technique must be perfect to get smooth downshifts) but it's hard to argue with paddles and electrohydraulic shifting. It works flawlessly and you can really concentrate on your line … or the view !

Mark Petry
Bainbridge Island, WA USA

The Golden Boy 

Those shifters, derailleurs, brakes, levers, cable guides, extra chainrings and derailleur hangers clutter up the simple elegance of the gracile steel tubed bicycle.

TiHabanero

I switched to Campy 11 speed this year on my daily rider. Yes, it works really well. Yes, I have adjusted to it. Yes, I will go back to bar ends. Just like them better. Less stress on my right wrist and the ingrained habit had me reaching down to the bar end today. Been on the bike almost all summer! Bar ends it is for me with an 11 speed cassette on the rear.

The Golden Boy 

There are currently 3 bikes in my fleet with Command Shifters. I love those things. Two are set up with 6 speed Accushift and one is set up with SIS 10 speed. I do have a pair of Ultegra 10 speed brifters- but I really really dig the Command Shifters


IMG_2402 by Dave The Golden Boy, on Flickr


1985 Trek 620 by Dave The Golden Boy, on Flickr

Lascauxcaveman 

I have not had this brought to my attention before, but now that you mention it, it is oh so true.

Big hills in my area and climbing out of the saddle on the hoods is a most natural thing. Brifters are unbeatable in this scenario; barcons a distant second. DT shifters; sit down, shift and stand up again.

sdn40

PSP is awesome. One of my favorite places

Tulok

Slightspeed

I had a 90ish Forza with Exage drivetrain. I loveed it, but needed lower gears, so I swapped the 7 speed cassette for one with 28t, and with the 52/39 (?) Biopace, it got me up all the hills I needed. I hate downtube shifters, but the Forza was my first with indexed shifting. Sadly, about the time I got the Bianchi the way I wanted it, it got killed by a car. I was able to transfer most of the parts from the destroyed Forza to a Nashbar frame, but it wasn't the same. By then I had discovered brifters, so on the rebuild I swapped the DTs for a set of Sora 8 speed brifters. They worked fine with the 7 speed, except the last click went nowhere. I've been avoiding DTs, pretty much since the 60s, mostly staying with Suntour or Campy friction bar ends. Still a DT hater, I now have two more with them, a '78 Peugeot PR10, and a barn find Legnano Gran Premio. I can ride them, just don't like them. Being an ex racer, I now ride for fun, and down tube shifters aren't fun for me, especially mixing it up with other riders on modern bikes on club rides. I say either bar end or brifter. I do like the feel of the Exage brake levers and hoods, and recently found a mint set for $10 that work well on my '78 Super Course with Weinmann centerpulls.

SurferRosa

Got ya solidly beat. I've never built one.

noglider 

@canklecat, very interesting. I had never thought about the need for different fit with brifters. It's got me thinking...

RiddleOfSteel

From extensive personal experience, and of course in my opinion, the change in reach over aero style brake levers, is 5-10mm if we're talking Shimano 9- and 10-speed STI levers (external shift cable). Shimano 8-speed STI levers have the same reach as their SLR/Super SLR brake lever brethren. The under-tape 10-speed Shimano levers were a little longer, and any of the modern/11-speed STI lever bodies bump that up another 7mm or so past that.

With a super long 140mm stem and already at the end of the reach range, a few mm in this case sounds a lot like the straw that broke the camel's back. Which then necessitated a big reality check, reset, and rethink. Catalysts are great like that! What's also not mentioned is any change in bar angle or STI lever angle with respect to the old aero brake levers. I will also say that having to operate a shift lever--as opposed to just squeezing a brake lever--can add a touch of reach (or the feel of it) as one is wrapping their hand around the lever a little when they operate the shift levers.

All of this is 1000% why I measure sit-bone-to-lever-hood-notch on all my bikes. Where that webbing/crook of my hand is--between the thumb and index finger--is the critical measurement point when assessing reach. The stem, the bars, and the positioning of the lever all play a critical role in this (to say nothing of the obvious role that the saddle setback and top tube length play). If nothing is known or considered in a "huge change in feel", before or after the fact, one will be completely lost. Documentation and context--critical bits to replicating positioning, especially if one is going to brifters and the small things that pop up with that.

easyupbug 

I have found that I am more comfortable riding DT shifters where I am less likely to need sudden braking, group rides, vehicular traffic, ect., and I want to have my hands where I can grab the levers instantly, from the drops or tops. Give me a nice open road and DT will get the call.

buegelfrei

Brifters and being able to shift while out of the saddle are lovely things, and I’d go with them if they match the derailleurs, and especially if the shape of the hoods plays nicer with your hands than the brake levers you have. Personally, I just need anything from the early aero era and onwards so I can get a comfy grip on the hoods, which is where I spend the most time.

If you do go the downtube route:

I had a mid-90s Bianchi Eros with 8 or 9 speed brifters which I eventually converted to an upright bar and downtube shifters. The downtube shifters I got for it were those “silver shifters” that Rivendell used to sell and they were so much nicer than the Campy Record shifters on my main bike, an ’83 Merckx, that I just had to upgrade the Merckx with Dia-Compe ENE downtube shifters (same mechanism as the “silver shifters”, as far as I know, but stylistically closer to the old Campy shifters).

Go with the lower gearing for sure! Last year I switched my Merckx to a Velo Orange Grand Cru 50.4 BCD — 46t/30t — and I’ll never look back!

ofgow

Interesting questions. You have seen from the previous posts that the general consensus seems to be that brifters or barcons will make the bike easier to ride.

I have long loved old frames, but always re-set the chainstays to 130mm and installed modern components. Since I came late to cycling, brifters and clipless pedals were being introduced as I took up the sport. I was an early adopter of both and never really developed the necessary skills for using toe clips and down tube shifters.

More recently, I decided to build a beater for this year’s Eroica, the one in Italy. Getting the bike set up with the necessary gearing and learning to ride it have both presented interesting challenges. I can confirm the general consensus – the new stuff is definitely easier to use, particularly in group rides, hilly terrain, and city traffic.

It will be interesting to see whether or not I ever choose to ride with either toe clips or down tube shifters ever again once the Eroica event is over.

Oh, and thanks to all of you who have posted pics of older frames sporting modern components. It is encouraging to know that I’m not a total pariah.

Wildwood 

Orange must be the color for briftered vintage.


Here's an in progress pic. (no images of the finished project on this device)