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Newbie Intolerant...

Old 09-02-19, 05:36 PM
  #26  
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Sometimes I find myself pausing when I compose replies to posts from new members new to C&V asking questions about bikes like Peugeots with Carbolite 103 or similar bikes with 1020 or 2040 high tensile steel frames. What bothers me is, we tend to use what might be perceived as "snooty" or "disparaging" terms when describing these bikes.
The usual terms used like "low level", "cheap", "gas pipe", "boat anchor" is not helpful at all when a new person to C&V is trying to understand and get a handle on this side of the hobby and sport.
So next time a new member comes on line and asks about bikes like the UO8, P6, basic Huffys or Ross or similar bikes, answer it within the context of what the bike was made for and it's useful best traits (and maybe its potential for modding up) and not immediately label it with subjective terms that is mostly just, in many instances, shutting down any useful, constructive" conversation with the poster before it can even begin.
Frankly, I had been guilty of doing this many times on his forum, but had been thinking about my actions related to this, as I realize the roots (which I enjoyed just as much as I enjoy my present bikes) of what I started with in the sport and hobby, to get me where I am now.
Maybe instead of the terms I listed above, we can consider using other terms like "entry level", "base model", "sport touring", "light touring", "town bike", "commuter".....etc..., instead?
Yes, we can call out "junk" when it is real junk, but it seems like some very decent, C&V bikes are getting swept up into that "junk category". Just because they do not have the "proper" Reynolds, Columbus, Vitus tubing or racing level components that a lot of us look for...
JMOs.....
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Old 09-02-19, 05:46 PM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by Narhay View Post
If a new user stops in and can get their information in 1 post then they may be on their way shortly thereafter. If 10 posts over two days means there is some effort put into seeing other threads and sparks an interest in being a longterm user then it is doubly useful as a spam prevention and user collector mechanism.
It's a nice thought but cb400bill said it all in post 11.
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Old 09-02-19, 06:06 PM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by Rollfast View Post
Asking what your bike is worth is not a crime in itself. Even if that is all they want, if they are served then our mission is met. There is no rule that says you must grow old and die here. Our forums serve the needs of all.
On the contrary, our forum and our members do not exist to serve the needs of the greedy. We are not a charity.

I happen to think that fly-by-night info seekers are inconsiderate when they:
  1. Provide little to no detail about the bicycle they have,
  2. Preface their posts with delusions of value,
  3. Ignore the subforum designed specifically for appraisals requests, and/or
  4. Pull a sales pitch in their valuation post, insinuating that a forum member- *ahem* "collector" - should buy their bike RIGHT NOW.
Since they're the ones who stand to benefit the most off of the free information we provide out of our own goodwill and time, it is not unreasonable for us to put down house rules. Virtual crowd control. Those who are in it for the hobby and not the money, have every right to be grumbly when the general public tries to sneak under the queue barriers.

Case in point, @BFisher made an exceptional example out of the one new member who came into this thread. It is all about ME, I, WANT, and they're somehow hopeless without us...

...as if Google doesn't exist, Sheldon never wrote a word, and R. J. the Bike Guy never made a video.

Sorry, this is the Internet in the year 2019. If you have anything remotely more common than a Durkopp, you can find information on your bike, how to service it, and probably how much it's worth too. There's no excuse to play oh-woe-is-me-nobody-will-help over basic information. That's not to say that I think we shouldn't exist to help, but not to people who act like Google doesn't exist and we're disposable after they've used us.

Ten posts. Are people that damn impatient that 10 posts are too much to ask in exchange for one-on-one, specialized mechanical advice for free? Or appraisals from a group of people who have an exceptional grasp on the market?

No, it isn't unreasonable. But people are that damn impatient. Heck, if it wasn't for our login system, we'd be a wasteland of gimme posts even if spambots didn't exist. If you have some popcorn with you, take a look at this trainwreck of a thread started by very arrogant newbie who apparently knows better than the Bicycle Mechanics experts he asked in the first place. Perfect example of the crap that could litter this forum without our mod team and very reasonable requirements.

Also, @cb400bill's comment about spambots made this a non-issue on its own. BikeForums.net has a huge presence online. It is a magnet for everyone, including the spambots. If the 10 post rule cuts down on the robo junk, all the better.

-Kurt

P.S.: I'll take it a step further: There are a few members (one in particular) on this forum who seem to participate with their latest "finds," but they're surreptitiously getting information for flipping. One of these slimeballs tends to extract bits and pieces of what we tell him into his Craigslist/OfferUp posts...except when there's fork damage. Yea, seems like that bit of highly important information never makes the ad. It doesn't stop him from putting a sky-high price on his junk either. What makes it worse is that since he comes back to read everything we've written, that means he is selling his bikes with full knowledge of said mechanical hazards.
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Old 09-02-19, 06:32 PM
  #29  
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For me a simple trade off:
minimal spam or serving the needs of the very occasional user.

A newbie who wishes to participate beyond one or two questions likely should not be offended by 10 posts in 2 days.

The newbie who just wants an appraisal or bike fitting comments may object to the rules .

My opinion/position would be to favor users who wish more than a one/two question relationship.

i like today’s rules.
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Old 09-02-19, 06:42 PM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by cudak888 View Post
On the contrary, our forum and our members do not exist to serve the needs of the greedy. We are not a charity.
...
Charities I support don't exist to serve the greedy, either. Some of what we do does make us in some respects a charity, in a nice way -- a group of people who volunteer their time and knowledge within the constraints of what they think is reasonable for a personally meaningful and socially useful objective. (I just made that up on the spot, so feel free to nitpick.) What it doesn't make us is the government welfare office, where someone shows up and says, "I want money or services from you that I'm entitled to, regardless of what I'm willing to contribute myself (which is often nothing -- why would you even think such a thing??),...and hurry up with it already, the queue is too dam' long."

That aside, couldn't agree more with your sentiments.

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Old 09-02-19, 06:44 PM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by conspiratemus1 View Post
Actually that kind of does make us a charity, in a nice way -- a group of people who volunteer their time and knowledge within the constraints of what they think is reasonable for a personally meaningful and socially useful objective. (I just made that up on the spot, so feel free to nitpick.) What it doesn't make us is the government welfare office, where someone shows up and says, "I want money or services from you that I'm entitled to, regardless of what I'm willing to contribute myself (which is often nothing -- why would you even think such a thing??),...and hurry up with it already, the queue is too dam' long."

That aside, couldn't agree more with your sentiments.
I think we probably do see eye-to-eye on this, even though our interpretations of the words may differ - I love your interpretation.

-Kurt
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Old 09-02-19, 06:50 PM
  #32  
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@cudak888

I think everything you said above makes wonderful sense... Though I'm personally someone who has been using the internet for tedious research for the better part of two decades, and searching for answers to questions similar to those I've posed (to myself or others) in the past is relatively easy. However, anyone who is truly a "noob" at something usually won't even have an inkling about where to turn first in their quest for answers. This is especially true of people who do not regularly do research on the internet (which would include a majority of people in the world).

That just seems like something important to keep in mind. Finding a forum about a subject you know nothing about and may only wish to learn something specific regarding, joining and asking about that specific thing... Well, that might seem like the obvious answer for some, and I can't blame them if the alternative research methods are unfamiliar.

-Gregory
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Old 09-02-19, 06:55 PM
  #33  
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I’m not sure if this is something we can vote on, but I agree - many people come here for the first time to ask about, or talk about, a specific bike, and I think the 10 post thing is a turn off for them.

I get why the rule exists, but I also think it really negatively impacts their experience and our recruiting. I’d be in favor of removing the requirement and asking for more moderator volunteers?

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Old 09-02-19, 07:00 PM
  #34  
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I can see how the 10 post limit can be frustrating to a newbie, but as the modern parlance goes, "Use your words." I have early copies of John Muir's "How to Keep Your Volkswagen Alive" and they didn't have very many of those cool Peter Aschwanden illustrations yet. One person had to describe the hardware and problem as best as they could *in words* and the other person needed to make an effort to read those words and visualize what was going on. That skill seems to be on the wane since it's so easy to take and post pictures these days...
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There's no such thing as too far.. just lack of time
Originally Posted by noglider
People in this forum are not typical.
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Old 09-02-19, 07:08 PM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by cudak888 View Post
Don't encourage opportunists - most of whom will wind up getting move to the Appraisals forum once they tip their hat as to why they're really here - an easier path to a free assessment of their bike.

-Kurt
Free Assessment? Where does one go to pay for an assessment?
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Old 09-02-19, 07:10 PM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by Road Fan View Post
Free Assessment? Where does one go to pay for an assessment?
Lawyers.

-Kurt
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Old 09-02-19, 07:25 PM
  #37  
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Seriously, 99.9% of lawyers are not capable of doing the kinds of cycle assessments we do.
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Old 09-02-19, 07:31 PM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by Road Fan View Post
Seriously, 99.9% of lawyers are not capable of doing the kinds of cycle assessments we do.
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Old 09-02-19, 07:40 PM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by cudak888 View Post
If you have some popcorn with you, take a look at this trainwreck of a thread started by very arrogant newbie
More fun than a visit to the periodontist and a lot cheaper.
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Old 09-02-19, 08:31 PM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by wiggles_world View Post
I'm a complete newbie and I want to identify a bike I just purchased. Without that info it's hard for me to get parts and refurbish the bike properly. It's a shame I can't post images and get a little help.
In lieu of photos, write out a description for now. You expect a little effort from us? Sure - but you might want to make a little yourself as well. Give and take works great around this here Forum

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Old 09-02-19, 08:41 PM
  #41  
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Has anyone checked the ratio of members to guests? Esp in C&V.

Many times the ratio is 10 guests to 1 member.

People are able to get TONS of info - and search as well, without ANY affiliation.

Maybe instead of 10 posts in 2 days, maybe 6 posts in 2 days. But there are some persistent spammers.
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Old 09-02-19, 09:02 PM
  #42  
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Cudak888,
I have finally found something I can put a like on! Your post #29 here strikes a chord with me. I went to the local bike co-op tonight and put the Dero pump back in place after replacing the $45 pump head that the local homeless dudes have once again torn apart. I feel like I waste my time on folks who want something for nothing and that they are entitled to, every time this happens. Which by the way is about every three weeks. At what time do I stop enabling the homeless/bums of the world. The folks who truly need the services I provide are thankful but the homeless feel entitled, and that really gets to me. Maybe that is why I don't mind the ten post rule. If it stops the entitlement mentality then I don't mind. Just my personal rant. Smiles, MH
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Old 09-02-19, 09:11 PM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by Mad Honk View Post
Cudak888,
I have finally found something I can put a like on! Your post #29 here strikes a chord with me. I went to the local bike co-op tonight and put the Dero pump back in place after replacing the $45 pump head that the local homeless dudes have once again torn apart. I feel like I waste my time on folks who want something for nothing and that they are entitled to, every time this happens. Which by the way is about every three weeks. At what time do I stop enabling the homeless/bums of the world. The folks who truly need the services I provide are thankful but the homeless feel entitled, and that really gets to me. Maybe that is why I don't mind the ten post rule. If it stops the entitlement mentality then I don't mind. Just my personal rant. Smiles, MH
Exactly this, entitled, instant gratification, most can only be bothered for a click or a swipe,"Why shouldn't I be able to do what I want right now!".

Well because this is Classic and VINTAGE, oldschool baby, put in some time and effort as we have done, now get off my lawn.
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Old 09-02-19, 09:59 PM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by Rollfast View Post
Asking what your bike is worth is not a crime in itself. Even if that is all they want, if they are served then our mission is met.
That's our mission here? I thought our mission was N+1 and pics - lots of pics (preferably from the drive side)

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Old 09-02-19, 10:49 PM
  #45  
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I didn't have time to scan this entire thread, but what about an "if you're new here" sticky to set some expectations. At least then the common refrain can be to point people to the sticky with common info, like why 10 posts are necessary, take pics from the drive side, say hi to others and comment on others' bikes to get to 10, etc.
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Old 09-02-19, 11:35 PM
  #46  
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Originally Posted by KonAaron Snake View Post
I get why the rule exists, but I also think it really negatively impacts their experience and our recruiting.
Recruiting? If recruiting could make a difference, can we at least keep it to really tall or really short folks? I'm having a hard enough time finding nice vintage frames in 56cm. A simple (and mandatory) "how tall are you?" question should work. Thanks!


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Old 09-03-19, 12:02 AM
  #47  
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Originally Posted by noobinsf View Post
I didn't have time to scan this entire thread, but what about an "if you're new here" sticky to set some expectations. At least then the common refrain can be to point people to the sticky with common info, like why 10 posts are necessary, take pics from the drive side, say hi to others and comment on others' bikes to get to 10, etc.
We already have that, it's called the terms of service or whatever. It's all there, and usually the only thing nobody reads.
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Old 09-03-19, 12:22 AM
  #48  
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Originally Posted by Wildwood View Post
For me a simple trade off:
minimal spam or serving the needs of the very occasional user.
In some subforums, it is far more than the occasional user. Perhaps half of the users are encountering the problem.

Yes, a lot of users that post about their "issue", then vanish, but some join in with more discussions.

I'm not convinced that SPAM by photos is a big issue at this time, although that could become an issue in the future.

I have no problems with the 5+5 post limits, and the blocking links in general (other than the photo links). And, find it annoying when a single spammer dumps in dozens of spam messages.

Originally Posted by ThermionicScott View Post
I can see how the 10 post limit can be frustrating to a newbie, but as the modern parlance goes, "Use your words."
A picture is worth a thousand words!!!

In the Appraisals forum, those of us that venture there both like to look at the vintage bikes, as well as can tell a lot more about a bike from photos than a description.

I was participating in a thread about bent spokes last week when the OP posted a photo of the wheel showing the spokes bending side to side, when there was the assumption that the bends were front to back. It took the problem solving in a different direction.
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Old 09-03-19, 03:52 AM
  #49  
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Wow! Though I do try to not be long winded, here goes...

First of all, I agree that spam must be prevented and tried to make that clear in my initial post (#1).

Second, I came to the Bike Forums initially, as many or even most do, to get information. How many potentially helpful and knowledgeable people has the ten post rule driven away? For example, though I like the Classic Rendezvous website, I cannot figure out how to use their forum so I do not go there anymore. Though this is a conceited statement, but none the less true, I am a helpful and knowledgeable person and Classic Rendezvous does not benefit from it. I just didn't go back.

When it comes to customers, it is really this simple - Customers get what I want or go elsewhere. And, if they do get what they want, finding value in visiting the website, chances are that some of them, like me, will visit again, and again and (good grief, I spend way too much time here).

Third, in addition to the information that I seek, I also come to the forums now for entertainment and, perhaps, companionship someday. I have met some pretty darn nice people here.

Finally, and for me this is a big one - I come here to help others though I do get bothered by some of the inane requests that the uninformed newbie might present, but I try to help anyway. Why? Because that is a big part of what this forum is all about and I used to be an uninformed newbie.

As for anyone insisting that I pee away two days to get to use a service..? Pooey-Stinko! As was the case, for me, with Classic Rendezvous. I just didn't go back because the forum was/is too difficult for me to figure out how to use their service. I think that to be Classic Rendezvous' loss, not because I am great, but because their policy might have pushed a great person away, never allowing him or her to share useful information.

To be honest and horribly critical, this ten rule thing is counterproductive to growing the BF website or the interest in preserving and riding vintage bicycles. It is also annoying, as long time members have mentioned, to not have access to the needed pictures when they are most important for us (long time member) if we are expected to help. And if you do something to help others, in this forum, that should be the reward in itself.

I can remember when I first came to the Bike Forums and some of the comments that veteran forum members offered. Then, I knew next to nothing and did not really know how to go about finding it. Today, I am one of the people who is lucky enough to have knowledge that I can pass on to help others and I expect nothing for it, other than the satisfaction that I get doing so. In fact, that is the exact reason I built and published MY "TEN SPEEDS".

My whole intention with this thread is to pick your brains. Surly, the bunch of us can come up with a better way to say Welcome.
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"98% of the bikes I buy are projects". Learn how to find, restore and maintain vintage road bicycles at... MY "TEN SPEEDS"
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Old 09-03-19, 04:30 AM
  #50  
Johno59
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Bikes: 1903 24 spd Sunbeam, 1927 Humber, 3 1930 Raleighs, 2 1940s Sunbeams, 2 1940s Raleighs, Rudge, 1950s Robin Hood, 1958 Claud Butler, 2 1973 Colnago Supers, Eddie Merckx, 2 1980 Holdsworth, EG Bates funny TT bike, another 6 or so 1990s bikes

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Pub Bike

Originally Posted by Chombi1 View Post
Sometimes I find myself pausing when I compose replies to posts from new members new to C&V asking questions about bikes like Peugeots with Carbolite 103 or similar bikes with 1020 or 2040 high tensile steel frames. What bothers me is, we tend to use what might be perceived as "snooty" or "disparaging" terms when describing these bikes.
The usual terms used like "low level", "cheap", "gas pipe", "boat anchor" is not helpful at all when a new person to C&V is trying to understand and get a handle on this side of the hobby and sport.
So next time a new member comes on line and asks about bikes like the UO8, P6, basic Huffys or Ross or similar bikes, answer it within the context of what the bike was made for and it's useful best traits (and maybe its potential for modding up) and not immediately label it with subjective terms that is mostly just, in many instances, shutting down any useful, constructive" conversation with the poster before it can even begin.
Frankly, I had been guilty of doing this many times on his forum, but had been thinking about my actions related to this, as I realize the roots (which I enjoyed just as much as I enjoy my present bikes) of what I started with in the sport and hobby, to get me where I am now.
Maybe instead of the terms I listed above, we can consider using other terms like "entry level", "base model", "sport touring", "light touring", "town bike", "commuter".....etc..., instead?
Yes, we can call out "junk" when it is real junk, but it seems like some very decent, C&V bikes are getting swept up into that "junk category". Just because they do not have the "proper" Reynolds, Columbus, Vitus tubing or racing level components that a lot of us look for...
JMOs.....
In the UK a less than desirable framed bike is referred to as a Pub Bike ie: for going to and fro the pub. The fact it is ridden most days and / or nights means it becomes much beloved. I'm always asked to repair them (for a free pint) and folks are always devastated if they get stolen.
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