Clubman era replica compatible frames?
Looking at this beautiful bike has gotten me (once again) inspired to try a long percolating idea to try to make a Clubman (type) replica project over the winter using a more modern yet true to style frame and components :https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-v...rand-prix.html
Given not having an actual Raleigh frame from that era to start with, what other more easily sourced frames do people think would give a similar geometry / look to a Raleigh Clubman / Lenton? Something common enough to be a taken out for rambles without worrying about wear and tear as the originals were yet with a look (and paint) that might make one think it was from that era. Not trying to "fake" a bike though with misleading decals. I'm currently into this project, restoring and converting a 69 Gitane Gran Sport Deluxe to single speed status but no matter what I do, it will always be French :) https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...d53cc562_c.jpg My last English project was this 70 Raleigh Grand Pix which I enjoyed but alas, it is too large for me. https://live.staticflickr.com/4874/4...2f49cac0_c.jpg Something like this; similar saddle, a SA 3speed IGH perhaps, period fenders, older brake levers etc... But I don't know enough about Clubmans to know what frame would match. Would a 70's era Raleigh road frame, with older parts, pass as a faux style Clubman? Any ideas? |
By Clubman, do you just want to build up a drop bar 3 speed bike? Why can't pretty much any older bike work well for this as long as you are happy with the tire and fender clearance? Personally if I were going to build one of these, I'd be tempted to mod a Raleigh super course with its plain gauge 531 tubing and generous tire clearance.
|
Originally Posted by bikemig
(Post 21127242)
By Clubman, do you just want to build up a drop bar 3 speed bike? Why can't pretty much any older bike work well for this as long as you are happy with the tire and fender clearance? Personally if I were going to build one of these, I'd be tempted to mod a Raleigh super course with its plain gauge 531 tubing and generous tire clearance.
Hopefully that doesn't sound too confused. |
I'm thinking along with Bikemig... you need to list what you define as a "clubman", and specifically, what aspects of the build that you define as 1) have to have, 2) desirable, and finally 3) negotiable. I'm sure some will disagree with you, but that's neither here nor there in acceptability of your final build.
|
Originally Posted by uncle uncle
(Post 21127262)
I'm thinking along with Bikemig... you need to list what you define as a "clubman", and specifically, what aspects of the build that you define as 1) have to have, 2) desirable, and finally 3) negotiable. I'm sure some will disagree with you, but that's neither here nor there in acceptability of your final build.
A frame that passes as similar in geometry to the Clubman or Lenton of the 50's. Similar bars, levers, saddle, peddles, crankset (I have most of this already). Either a SA three speed or 1x 5 speed with Huret derailer and DT lever (have these). Could try my hand at making a 3 speed derailer freewheel too. Period looking fenders - undecided. Wheels debatable: I have 27's, 700's but would also entertain building a 650b rim with plump tan wall's for a twist. Paint scheme would be similar but not exact, more of a nod to the clubman. The idea is for a fun build that will allow weekend riding in the style of the day. Not a money pit trying to recreate exactly but not building a frame that would never look as being from that period. I've thought of this on and off since seeing the modern Raleigh offering. I thought, cool idea to re imagine one but their bikes looked nothing like the originals. What's interesting (to me) is that some of the classic components are still available in modern form Sturmey Archer hubs, Carradice bags, Brooks saddles. With a modern frame and some Velo Orange one could make a fairly reasonable re rendering a little more faithful to the original. |
Steyr Clubman.
even has clubman on the downtube slack angles, simple |
Interesting...
Not that it might make a difference but I live in Canada and tend to have a harder time finding and shipping bikes. My CL shows nothing. But the bike looks like what I'm after. |
I'm going to build a faux Clubman this winter along the lines you outlined. I like the look of bikes from 1946-1951 and was inspired by Peter Kohler's excellent On the Drops blog. For a frame, I'm using a 1973 English made Supercycle - mostly because I got the bike really cheap and the frame was straight. I can't comment on ride quality or geometry but the weight of the frame and fork is about a pound heavier than my 1978 Raleigh Competition GS frame and fork. The Raleigh is supposedly double butted Reynolds 531 - the Supercycle is gas pipe. Note that my Supercycle has a 21" frame while the Raleigh Completion is a 23" - not exactly the same size, so interpret your own results. I expect to more than make up the difference in weight by using alloy parts from the vendors you mentioned.
I'd say go ahead with your project - its lots of fun making a bespoke bicycle. |
Originally Posted by Happy Feet
(Post 21127239)
. Would a 70's era Raleigh road frame, with older parts, pass as a faux style Clubman? Any ideas? I used to own an original clubman style bike, a c.1962 Dawes Realmrider built with "Racelite" lugs and probably Tru-wel tubing. The Realmrider was usually a derailleur bike with 4,5, 8 or 10 speeds and a shifter boss and other suitable brazed-on bits, but mine came with what appeared to be a stock Sturmey-Archer FW gearhub - https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...ae4a11c6dd.jpg - and my memory is that it was roughly 72-degrees parallel. It also had a 42-in wheelbase, and on Panaracer Pasela 27 x 1 1/4 it just floated over the road beautifully. Add Dawes to your search, and especially older Galaxy models, which were roughly comparable to the Raleigh Super Course and built with plain gauge 531 main frames. While I can appreciate the older parts, I wound up deciding I wanted something new that could produce the same ride experience as a vintage bike, but with contemporary parts and dimensions. I ordered this Mercian in 2002 and received it in early January 2003 and have ridden it many many miles since then. If I had it to do today I would have a little more tire clearance and would specify front-opening but very very long rear dropouts rather than the Campagnolo track ends Mercian supplied. It's in its usual fixed-gear mode here, but could easily be adapted to a Sturmey gearhub. That's 72-degrees parallel, 23 1/2-in seat tube to top with a 41-in wheelbase on 700C wheels, btw. https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...c18b43e8f6.jpg |
Excellent Rusty Springs! The Mercian and Dawes are right along the lines of what I'm thinking of. Interesting take on the 70's Raleighs too. Thanks :)
|
Originally Posted by Happy Feet
(Post 21127272)
For this idea (hope it's what you have in mind):
A frame that passes as similar in geometry to the Clubman or Lenton of the 50's. Similar bars, levers, saddle, peddles, crankset (I have most of this already). Either a SA three speed or 1x 5 speed with Huret derailer and DT lever (have these). Could try my hand at making a 3 speed derailer freewheel too. Period looking fenders - undecided. Wheels debatable: I have 27's, 700's but would also entertain building a 650b rim with plump tan wall's for a twist. Paint scheme would be similar but not exact, more of a nod to the clubman. The idea is for a fun build that will allow weekend riding in the style of the day. Not a money pit trying to recreate exactly but not building a frame that would never look as being from that period. I've thought of this on and off since seeing the modern Raleigh offering. I thought, cool idea to re imagine one but their bikes looked nothing like the originals. What's interesting (to me) is that some of the classic components are still available in modern form Sturmey Archer hubs, Carradice bags, Brooks saddles. With a modern frame and some Velo Orange one could make a fairly reasonable re rendering a little more faithful to the original. I'd also consider using other fully db 531 British frames that you find have attractive frame angles, top tube, fork rake, chainstay length, and wheel clearances. My 1980 Woodrup Giro is fully db 531 (, 44 cm chainstays, 74 degree seat tube, 73 head tube and trail around 45 mm, and was originally sold with 27x1 ¼. The steep seat tube is more suitable to modern saddles. The 50s frames had Brooks saddles as standard, and for me the 71 deg seat tube is perfect for a Brooks due to the saddle's very limited fore-aft adjustment range (all Brooks single-rail models). I can manage this with a deep-setback seatpost such as a Nitto S-84, but this is a costly item for a seatpost. Looking at geo charts for Bob Jackson, Woodrup, Mercian and others could get you some additional ideas. Also perhaps some existing US builders would replicate your 1958 Raleigh or my 1952 Rudge for a reasonable price in lugged double-butted construction. You could perhaps even go with heat-treated standard-diameter tubing with thinner walls, for a flexier more lively ride that might approximate the behavior of 753 thinwall tubing. Loads of interesting options! Using old 3-speed frames is attractive, because it seems from the spec sheets that most 26" "Clubman-style" bikes were roadsters (Raleigh Superbe or DL-1) or light roadsters like a Raleigh Sport equipped with drop bars, B17 clone saddles, and possibly different brake levers. You can peruse spec sheets and a lot of excellent timely and modern commentary in Peter Kohler's series of blogs, for example this one: https://on-the-drops.blogspot.com/20...erne-1952.html. By looking through this stuff you can also get some perspective on how this type of bike was evolved up to the 1958 model year you are using as a model. |
Originally Posted by repechage
(Post 21127280)
Steyr Clubman.
even has clubman on the downtube slack angles, simple |
I sort of did that, but with a heavy stove pipe frame from an Armstrong 3-speed. I used a Sturmey AW (wide-range 3-speed) hub with a long axle and 14-16-18-20 Cyclo cogblock and an early Campag. Record rear derailleur with a downtube-mounted old style Simplex shift lever. I tucked the 3-speed trigger under/inboard of the left brake lever on the drop bars, to facilitate double shifts. Transfer that whole concept to any proper lightweight slack geometry road frame (my 1959 Capo would work, if Austrian, like the Steyr Clubman, is OK), substitute aluminum 27" rims for my 26" steels, and you have it.
|
In for this build. Great topic and I'm happy to see how many others here are interested in the Clubman era machines. Raleigh 531 Reynolds anything is rare and expensive here, so like others I am building one this winter as well. With a sturmey hub, Brooks saddle, and old carradice bag, I figure it'll be close enough.
I'm gonna use my Peugeot A08 in '70s red. It is in my size, my favourite Peugeot colour, and it's a common bike so I can lock it up outside in town. It also has a great ride and the original drivetrain is worn out. I have a '53 sturmey FW (four speed wide ratio) hub and a Maillard 700 pro front hub. I'll re size the drop outs and build a wheelset. I can't decide between 700c or 650b. My 1950 Superbe is such a comfy ride on 650a. Maybe my commuter and town bike should be comfy too. Good luck and have fun. |
...here is a photo of an early Raleigh Super Course. It seems to me to have about all the inherited characteristics of the Lenton Grand Prix, albeit with an upgraded fork and a slightly less ornate paint and decal presentation. They used to be pretty commonly available, and more numerous because of their early 70's origin, as opposed to 1950's. What's nice about this choice is you can still find them with the original cottered cranks, if you want that as a feature.
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...4fcf52b80d.jpg If you really wanted to go hog wild, you can get decals that approximate the Lenton ones from H Lloyd in the UK. https://h-lloyd-cycles.myshopify.com...raleigh+Lenton You'd need to mask the lugs and head badge, and paint the head tube to get that look. But that's not difficult to do. |
Just about any English roadster can be made into a Clubman style bike
Basic 50's era Raleigh....but the decal reads deLux https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...9f966c4649.jpg And a 30's era Hercules done up with period bits https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...204c714849.jpg Skip the paint, patina ads an air of authenticity. or go all out and build up a hybrid hub gear....very British if not particularly useful. |
Originally Posted by 3alarmer
(Post 21128206)
...here is a photo of an early Raleigh Super Course. It seems to me to have about all the inherited characteristics of the Lenton Grand Prix, albeit with an upgraded fork and a slightly less ornate paint and decal presentation. They used to be pretty commonly available, and more numerous because of their early 70's origin, as opposed to 1950's. What's nice about this choice is you can still find them with the original cottered cranks, if you want that as a feature.
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...4fcf52b80d.jpg If you really wanted to go hog wild, you can get decals that approximate the Lenton ones from H Lloyd in the UK. https://h-lloyd-cycles.myshopify.com...raleigh+Lenton You'd need to mask the lugs and head badge, and paint the head tube to get that look. But that's not difficult to do. |
Wow! so much info to chew over. Thanks everyone for all the links and suggestions - I now feel I have a lot of bikes to consider and scout for. Just what I need, another bike project :)
|
According to Peter Kohler, the 1950 Raleigh Clubman had 71° seat and 73° head angles (the two year's previous models were more slack). My '73 Raleigh SuperCourse, which I've built up as a Clubman-style bike with 5-speed IGH and drop bars has 73° parallel angles:
https://live.staticflickr.com/4166/3...077e58f8_c.jpg An early 70s SuperCourse is a great platform for this concept, given the stamped dropouts without a derailleur hanger and that they're plentiful and can usually be had for pretty small money. I've had a '50 and '51 Raleigh Clubman (currently have a '49), and the SuperCourse has a very similar ride. |
Watch the C&V sales, there are 2 frames being sold by @nlerner for a nice price and could be built into a nice derailleur based Clubman style bike.
|
Originally Posted by nlerner
(Post 21128565)
According to Peter Kohler, the 1950 Raleigh Clubman had 71° seat and 73° head angles (the two year's previous models were more slack). My '73 Raleigh SuperCourse, which I've built up as a Clubman-style bike with 5-speed IGH and drop bars has 73° parallel angles:
https://live.staticflickr.com/4166/3...077e58f8_c.jpg An early 70s SuperCourse is a great platform for this concept, given the stamped dropouts without a derailleur hanger and that they're plentiful and can usually be had for pretty small money. I've had a '50 and '51 Raleigh Clubman (currently have a '49), and the SuperCourse has a very similar ride. |
My first choice would be a Raleigh Grand Sports. But there are a lot of 1970's frames with good tubing and plain dropouts without a derailer hanger. Lambert, Viscount, Falcon, Dawes, even Holdsworth... probably every bike factory in England had something along those lines.
|
Originally Posted by repechage
(Post 21127280)
Steyr Clubman.
even has clubman on the downtube slack angles, simple The JC Higgins Clubman label sold by Sears Roebuck, made by Steyr (Austria c.1957). Sans mudguards Sporting 3x3x2 Aluminum non hooked bead rims, Michelin 28". Come to think of it, this bike deserves a ride today ;") https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...0db77b0708.jpg https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...8b157df9fe.jpg https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...80af2e74d1.jpg |
That Higgins is very cool!
Slack angles? Knockaround level? Easily set up as IGH, or SS? Fenders? Hmmm... https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...82972df138.jpg ...an EF Schwinn can play all those games. :innocent: |
From the "rains when it pours" department:
Had a frustrating week trying to conclude deals on CL for a clubman like project bike (CL is weird). Finally found a roadster on FB marketplace and refreshingly completed the sale this morning with little fan fair. Even if the clubman idea doesn't work out it has great patina. Oddly, it came with a Bendix 2speed coaster that someone retrofitted along the way. I'm ok with that as the mix match now gives me more license to be creative with it. https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...0b85a033_c.jpg https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...c250b127_c.jpg The serial number and a weathered City of Vancouver registration decal date it pretty close to 1948 https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...68df0380_c.jpg https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...62716b39_c.jpg https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...ffa4ff1e_c.jpg Later today one of the CL sellers finally got back to me and we met up for a second buy. This one is a little more interesting... https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...e853e1b0_c.jpg No idea what it is yet but it has a 3 speed early derailer with a flip flop fixed gear on the other side. https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...73d79eaa_c.jpg https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...05d2dd58_c.jpg The serial is confusing as it seems to be from convention 2 1951 but the rest of the bike seems older. The seller seemed to think it was 43 but ? https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...c7ea16cd_c.jpg The only problem is those forks! I suppose I can straighten them with a hammer... :) I'm good for project bikes now |
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 07:02 AM. |
Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.