hokiefyd 

I've had my eye on local marketplace websites (CL, FB, etc.) looking for a traditional triangle frame Peugeot to go with my 1970 model mixte that I enjoy so much. This one recently came online, and I paid 40 bucks for it. Looking at the components on it from the seller's pictures, I figure it's worth at least that in parts, so I took the risk. I verified the wheels were reasonably true, that both the stem and seat post can be turned, and handed over two $20 bills.

The seller claimed it's a 1978 model but, after perusing the USA catalogs on Boom Bike Peugeot.com, I think this is a 1981 model PBN10. It's got the Carbolite 103 frame, Simplex downtube shifters, Stronglight 40/52 crankset, Peugeot-branded Simplex SX410 rear derailleur, and 622mm wheels (with 28mm Paselas). It also has the Weinmann sidepulls that are consistent with this model. The seat post is an aftermarket Promax 25.8mm seat post and the stem appears to be a 22mm ATAX with 25mm clamp. Is 25.8mm the right size for a 103 seat tube (it seemed unreasonably tight, despite being completely free to spin)?

It seems to have an Atom "compact" 6-speed freewheel (it appears to use the 5.0mm sprocket spacing) that turns with some drag, but it's free. The rear frame spacing is 120mm, and the hub OLD is 124mm. Would you guess this freewheel is French-threaded, or is it likely to be British-threaded?

There is no serial number on the bottom bracket shell, but dropout seems to have one stamped there. It starts with "B1" and has a total of eight numbers, which I think confirms a 1981 model, yes? The seat tube measures 23.5" center-to-top, which appears to be their 60cm model. I would normally think this would be too large for me, but it seems to work.

My plan is to clean this up, swap these sidepull brakes with centerpulls, and swap the bar to a town bar or north roads bar.

hokiefyd 

One unusual bit about this bike is one of the previous owners engraved everything with his name and his Social Security Number. I'm not joking...his last name apparently was Paquette and his SSN is one from Massachusetts, a 1964 vintage number (from looking on the internets). The stem is engraved with it, the non-drive side of the top tube is engraved with it; even the non-drive side of the rims are, in the braking surface (gee, thanks for that).

I have no idea who this guy is, but I'm really curious now...since he marked every component of his bike with it!

thumpism 

Not unheard of. I worked at a place and we had an engraver that could be used to mark customers' bikes if they wanted ID on them anywhere.

cannonride15

Seatpost on my 1985 PH10LS with Carbolite 103 frame tubes is 24mm; yep pretty narrow and hard to find replacement for! Your bike should clean up nicely, check all the bearings, cables, etc. and you should be good to go.

francophile 

If we use the "general" logic for serial number application on Peugeots, it was built February 1981. Normally I would expect that to be stamped on the BB shell though.

That SX410 derailleur (and the step up 610) is actually pretty damn solid. But the teeth on the pulleys can be very brittle and break. Exercise caution when removing and reinstalling the chain, any sideways torque will break a tooth.

Also be aware, you need to be careful with your shift cable selection. The holes for the cable end on Simplex shifters is unusually small. But on the plus side, there's a super cheap $9 kit with all the brake and shift cables and housings you'll need and it's the correct side on one end for Simplex levers, and it's under $10 on Amazon. More info here: Simplex Retrofriction cables

I don't disagree with this potentially being a PBN10.

hokiefyd 

Thanks -- that's interesting, the size difference. Does yours have a shim or any other diameter reducer at the top? My 1970 Pug mixte has a 22mm seat post, but there's a shim and collar at the top. I understand it would take a larger (perhaps 24mm) seat post without the shim. Nevertheless, the 25.8mm size on my 1981 model seems non-standard.

This is what I would expect, too (a serial number on the shell), but it's definitely not there (even after cleaning all the grime off). Just a lone, un-centered, drain hole.





Yeah, the derailleur seems stout. Thank you for the warning on the pulley wheels and the shifter cables.

The hubs are Atom hubs (I expected Maillard, based on the catalog). The front hub is dated 06 81 and the rear hub is dated 10 81. I suspect these may be replacement wheels, though. It's also supposed to have a Maillard freewheel, but this one is an Atom 77. The rims are supposed to be MAVIC, and the front rim is. The rear doesn't appear to be...or at least the decal over the rim joint is long gone with no evidence of it ever being there. The rims were originally drilled for presta valves, and they've been very crudely opened up to accept schrader valves. The holes are non-circular...like someone actually filed them out or something.

francophile 

I know this wasn't aimed at me, but wanted to share a tidbit some people miss. If you look closely on a lot of Peugeot's Carbolite frames (maybe yours, maybe not), the seat tube diameter is reduced just below the top tube and/or seat collar. Easily a 2mm reduction. Very smooth and focused tubing reduction, too, and proximity to the stay caps and seat tube collar makes it very easy to overlook.

Attaching an example of a 1983 P10S I restored for a coworker a few years ago. This one used the graphics that started after '82, after the checkerboard design on yours. Anyway, two points about this.

1) Sideways arrow points to the serial format. Notice similarity to yours. This bike frame I'm showing was popped out in 304 aka '3' year (1983) and '04' month (April).
2) Upwards arrow, you see that line through the side of the fixed cup? Yours has same. Every cup I've ever removed with that line around the rim is Swiss-thread. A lot of people screw up, a British/ISO thread cup WILL screw in, but WILL NOT seat flush or stay in correctly. I've had people fight/argue this point with me on the forum but I can point to threads where others confirmed it was the case on their own bikes after being told otherwise.

Catalog can't be 100% trusted. From 79-83 I've seen tons of usage of Normandy vs. Atom vs. Maillard. Seen more commonly in that progression, earlier to later years. I've flipped a metric butt ton of lower-end Peugeots within a year or two of 1980 with Atom hubs, but most of those had steel Rigida wheels still. As you start to get closer to 1983, that's when you start to see Maillard and - on some bikes like the PH10 variants, you'll some the Super Champion Modele 58 rims, which are pretty fantastic/underrated rmis for what they are. I'll be that jerk who yoinks them and swaps in some Rigidas to replace making it super confusing for anyone who gets the bike later

I'd be surprised to see Mavic on there. But yeah, it's totally possible the hubs are factory and someone swapped the rims. If no stickers and 700C, look for oval-shaped residue at the rim seam, between the spoke eyelets. That's where Rigida would've put their sticker. They often peel off with any significant hundreds of miles, although I've seen a bunch still intact after ~40 years and thousands of miles if decently cared for.

Check the pics in the post here, especially the last two for the Rigidas I'm speaking of: Need help identifying these Rigida rims

Also, here's the '83 P10S I was referencing above for the Swiss thread fixed cup marker and "typical" serial# location.

francophile 

Oops, one more remark. This specific Testors model enamel "Gloss Bright Blue 1110TT" is a very close match to your paint color, once you get the years of grime off. Will work great to patch up your rusty spots on the bottom-end. Be happy the trainer or kickstand damage under your chainstays isn't as bad as the bike I just pictured!

$2 on eBay right now, search for this number: 222713115749

hokiefyd 

Thank you, especially for that lead on the paint. It's not common to find close modern matches to some of these older colors. I'll obtain a bottle of that post haste.

I've had a Motobecane before with Swiss threads. I'd be happy if these are -- that eliminates the issue of undoing the drive side cup while pedaling. Filing this in the if-it's-not-patently-broke-then-don't-fix-it category, I have not removed the crank arms. I took the rings off and they (and the arms) cleaned up really nice with some baby wipes (my favorite bike cleaning tools!). But the cranks spin smooth with no apparent issues, so I'm going to leave them be for now. I've had problems with French-threaded cups before, and with square taper cranks creaking after a reinstall before...Swiss threads would fix the unthreading of French cups, but I plan to leave the cranks be unless I really need to remove them to avoid any unfortunate noise. If the system makes noise after I reassemble everything...well, I guess I'll cross that bridge then.

Interestingly, your '83 model has a B + 7 numbers. My presumably '81 model has a B + 8 numbers. Yours is 3 04 + serial number 6985. Mine is 1 02 + serial number 48441. I know the numbering on these Peugeots is inconsistent at best. Maybe different models or frame materials (PBN10, PX10; or Carbolite 103 vs Vitus 181 vs Reynolds, etc.) had different serial number formats. Perhaps they figured they'd build more of the less expensive models.

The front rim is definitely a MAVIC (unless someone put the red-diamond sticker on another rim!). Both rims seem to have the same profile -- the exterior width of both is exactly 20.0mm. That Moto I previously owned had aluminum Rigida 622s, and these do not appear to be the same as those. These do have eyelets and are 36h rims.

Front and rear rims, respectively:

noglider 

@hokiefyd, Maillard, Atom, and Normandy were names that one company used, so the catalog is not wrong even if the names on the components are not what the catalog says.

francophile 

Oh yeah, and that too (thx Tom)

It's always pretty consistent one way or another, not as gibberish as systems other French companies like Motobecane used. Most commonly through the Peugeot '80s bikes it's [Letter][3-digit#][4-6 digit#] where the letter can be anything but very commonly B for earlier years I've seen and Y for latter years, 3-digit is YMM for Year and Month frame was made, and the latter 4-6 trailing is the sequence of manufacture/frame# of that YMM. Location of the stamping was random maybe depending on whether cable guide existed or not, and on many of the '80s bikes you'd find a white piece of paper with the model name, size in cm, and serial number taped to the top of the chainstay, sometimes it ended up on the BB shell. It's always nice when those are still around.

As for that Mavic rim, looks like one of the Championnat du Monde but lacking the ID sticker of which one. If it's exactly the width you describe - 20mm - it's likely the Montlery. I say that because there were at least two other Championnat du Monde variants using that style of Mavic sticker, one was a fraction larger than 20mm (Professionel) and one a fraction smaller (Sur Route). Montlery was Presta, so was Professionel. Worth adding Module E used that sticker too, but was also a fraction skinnier than 20mm.

hokiefyd 

This Montlery? I measured again and it's nigh on 20.0mm. I sometimes get 19.8 or 19.9 and sometimes get up to 20.3. I have a digital caliper, and I understand how they're not always completely consistent. Montlery would be consistent with these rims having originally been presta-valved.

I popped over to Hobby Lobby at lunch and bought a bottle of that Testors 1110TT paint. Buck-79. I'll play with some of the more inconspicuous spots tonight to see what luck I have with that. If I get skilled at touching up the hard-to-see areas, I'll move to the more prominent rust areas.

Thanks, @noglider, for the note about the company names. I did not know they were the same, but I do now!

francophile 

Oh, believe me, it gets even worse with the French stuff!

There's Simplex whose parts were rebranded for other manuf'ers, cases where the same product was produced with different names - Stronglight, Solida, TA, Nervar come to mind due to being made in the same factory and some (Solida/Stronglight come to mind) branding each other's products their own OR branding with manufacturers names like the Puegeot-branded cranks on your bike above (those are Stronglight 104 or 105, I forget?). Then you have various joint relationships to further confuse like Vitus ("Ateliers de la Rive") and CLB (Angenieux CLB, C.L. Bourgoin) teaming up to make the lightweight-titan 979 dural framesets of the mid-80s and branding it as both of theirs on the bottom bracket.

It's one gaping rabbit hole ripe to fall into. Someone like @juvela is probably a good resource for more info on this tangled web ... possibly even to confuse you more! He's taught me a few bits here and there posting about his own research.

Great deal of buzz and industry in France leading up to mid-century then continuing through the decades following, much of the more notable stuff (to me) erupted out of St. Etienne.

juvela

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Nice find!

You should have good fun working with this gent.

The Verot 104 chainset and Atom pedals are excellent items.

At least two of the chainset's chainwheel bolts appear to be replacements - perhaps replaced with non-Verot ones.

Would expect all of the frame and threading dimensions to be yet metric for this date; cycle still slightly too early for BSC.

Atom hub threading is marked. If groove present outboard of hub flange and inboard of gear block threads hub is BSC. If no groove is present hub is metric thread.

Weinmann model 605 brake calipers will provide a date confirmation. Backside of caliper arms marked with a clock face type date code -




With @francophile on the case you could not enjoy finer assistance.


-----

hokiefyd 

Yes, the cranks are Stronglight 104s. 40/52, consistent with the catalog listing for 1981. Save for possibly the wheels, all the hard parts are consistent with a February 1981 production. The pedals are Atom, dated 01 81. The rear derailleur has either "021" or "D21" stamped in it. Maybe "021" means 02 (Feb) of 1981? I don't see anything stamped into either of the side plates. The inside of the drive side crank arm has a "B3" cast into it...but I don't see any other dates on it. I haven't unwrapped the handlebar (there's probably a date on it), but the ATAX stem has a "0281" stamped at the stop line.

With the hubs being of a later construction (06 and 10 of 1981), and absolutely no indication regarding the rims, I suspect the wheelset was replaced soon after the bike was purchased new. The same-year PFN10 supposedly came with MAVIC rims; perhaps there was a bike shop switch or warranty exchange or something of that nature. My freewheel is a 6-speed 14-16-18-21-24-28 consistent with a PBN10, but the wheels appear to have been swapped at some point.

I've become fascinated with French bikes. This one is my third. It is partly the way I romanticize French culture in my own mind, but I think it's also interesting how they seemingly felt a duty to their country or to their home continent to resist sourcing parts from Asia which, ultimately, was to be part of their fall. When they eventually moved away from MAFAC brakes, it wasn't to Shimano or Dia Compe, but to their West German neighbor, Weinmann (at least initially). Even their tires (Wolber, Michelin) were French, at least on the mid-line and above bikes.

It seems a bit sacrilege to have Asian parts on these things, doesn't it? I definitely have them on my '70 mixte. I kept the MAFAC brakes on it, but it's got a Shimano thumb shifter, Shimano short-pull brake levers, a Sugino crank with Sugino 40t ring, Shimano 7-speed cassette on an Asian freehub body with aluminum wheels, and a Shimano RD-5500 derailleur. Granted, much of that was done to replace really rusted factory components (very rusty steel cottered crank and steel wheels), and it rides really nice now. But this PBN10 is in better shape as far as the components go than my mixte was when I first got it, and I think I'm going to keep it all French if I can. I should even buy one of those Sedis chains you are offering in the C&V classifieds. The Stronglight 104 crank really cleaned up nice, as did the very nice SX410 derailleur. Aside from the frame scrapes and rusties, which I'll slowly work to fix, this looks like a pretty good buy.

hokiefyd 

I appreciate your kind assistance. You were a big help for me in IDing the mixte I bought about a year ago. Eagle eyes on the chain ring bolts! The originals were very rusted and I barely got them out. I replaced them with slightly shinier/longer ones when I put the rings back on. You don't miss anything. I have a Park FR-4 on order from my local bike shop -- should be here tomorrow. I'll get a closer look at the freewheel (and have a chance to really clean it off the hub) once that arrives.

My brakes do not appear to have the clock-face date on the back. They do say "MADE IN WEST GERMANY BY WEINMANN", but no other apparent markings. I would like to replace these with MAFAC RACER centerpulls if I can find a set for a reasonable price.

francophile 

I think French and Japanese go hand-in-hand. Was having this same conversation with @greg3rd48 yesterday as a matter of fact.

Let's face it, the Japanese were pivotal to the industry. Suntour invented the slant parallelogram, a huuuuge advancement. Shimano's Positron tech was groundbreaking as well and an awesome modern luxury. In my opinion, Nitto stems are worth their weight in gold. I personally put Suntour Winner variant and Pro Compe freewheels on everything I can.

But the French had something super-special w/alloy products, the higher-end steel frames had a certain j'ne sais quoi to them that subtly screamed refinement and beauty. They also gave us some nightmares like going all-in with Delrin on high-torque applications without thinking about what would happen 10+ years down the road. We all screw up something sometimes.

That said - on the chains, be aware, I think I only have 1 spare left. 8 sold since last year, 1 sold today, 1 pending sale today/tomorrow (actually, they just paid!), 1 reserved for my PX10 rebuild, 1 spare for "who knows what" later. Don't wait around too much longer!

cannonride15

No shim per say, the seat tube in vicinity of post clamp and juncture with top tube measures 26.4mm; below clamp area seat tube measures 28.4mm. this seems to jive with Jody Lee's observation of straight walled Carbolite 103 tube thickness of 1.2mm, as noted on his site.
https://peugeotcoursepb12.wordpress....-assessment-3/

hokiefyd 

Thanks for the measurement on that. My seat tube is a consistent 28.2/28.3mm (depending on where around the circumference I measure the diameter). Your observations are consistent with the comment from @francophile regarding a "necking" of the seat tube up near the clamp. As far as I can get my caliper up against the lug there, I can't get less than 28.2mm. And that does explain my 25.8mm seat post. 28.2 - 2*1.2 = 25.8 on the nose.

francophile 

Here's what I'm referencing on a lugless frame, where it's easier to see.

This reduction is present on many (all?) of their Carbolite frames, although I can't necessarily see it on the '81 P8 "Sport" variant in my shop at the moment a friend wanted me to work on, but maybe I'm not looking close enough (it had a steel seatpost similar to what the U08 Mixtes have).

The tubing walls on this example appear slightly thinner above the reduction than below. This is on one of the Tourmalets in my shop for rebuild right now, I think it's an '86.

Hopefully it's clear.

hokiefyd 

Yes, I can see the taper there. I'm pretty sure mine doesn't have it...that, or it does and the wall thickness really shrinks because I definitely have a 25.8mm seatpost in it!

In other news, I looked some more at the frame and where the tire clearance bulge in the seat stays are positioned. It really seems like the basic frame dimensions are such that the axle should be shoved all the way back in the dropouts (without a derailleur claw) because, in this position, the brake tracks fall just at the trailing edge of the bulges and the meat of the tire, the widest part of the casing, lies pretty much centered. With this position, I can pretty easily fit a 32mm tire. "Okay," I thought to myself, "maybe I can just have a derailleur hanger tab tacked or brazed to the bottom of the dropout tine, so I don't have to use the claw."

The obvious next step, for a rookie like myself, was to further examine my Simplex SX410 derailleur and see how the main knuckle mounted to the claw. I then committed what is apparently an irreversible sin in Simplex derailleur parlance -- I touched that mounting bolt that also indexes the spring to the body. As soon as I twisted it slightly, I heard and felt that spring unravel. "Crap". I fiddled with it some, but it's clear that I'm not getting that back together without some more research on The Trick to doing that. My mission was to see if I could just unbolt this claw and bolt the derailleur up to a different hanger...in that case, I would have considered having a Simplex hanger brazed on and would direct mount this to that. Oh well, more research needed on that.

All that to say, if I do indeed eventually braze a derailleur hanger on this thing, it would likely be a...Shimano style hanger with the B-tension screw tab. For now, it has a cheap and heavy and old Shimano TY-something on there that I keep in my parts bin for situations like this. I need something to move the chain, and this'll do for now.

The front wheel is cleaning up very nicely. I re-packed the bearings and I'm steel-wooling the rim flats (between the spokes) and the spokes themselves. I sanded the braking surfaces with 220 and then 320 to get the old junk and residue off and bring those back to smooth. Another few hours on that over the next few days and that front rim will be sorted. My FR-4 came in today at the LBS, so I'll fetch that this evening and check out the freewheel and rear hub.

francophile 

Yes you just committed the cardinal sin. There is no reason for most people to ever touch that front hex bolt.

In fact, on some derailleurs like the Simplex Criterium, they put red plugs in the hole to prevent people from doing what you did. You always use the bolt or hex opening hidden on the back/wheel side of the dropout to remove the derailleur.

Basically you just stripped a piece internally which is required to hold the derailleur tension in place. Read this thread. Another Simplex SX10 problem

Chances are you rounded off the flats on the mounting bolt. It's also possible (but unlikely) you snapped the spring. Good luck!! It can be fixed. You'll be taking off your chain and removing the RD totally.

hokiefyd 

Yeah, everything was already off the bike. The spring doesn't appear to be snapped, but it also doesn't seem to "catch" into place to reassemble it. I'll check the internets (thank you for that one link) and see what I can do to get it going again.

The front derailleur had already been replaced with a cheap Shimano, so I may just try to find a nice vintage-looking pair of derailleurs, like older 105, 600EX, RSX, etc., and call it a day.

francophile 

Pop out the pivot bolt. Look at this pic and notice the "flats" on either side of the nipple at the end of the "Prestige" bolt: https://c3.staticflickr.com/9/8561/2...6545f42e_b.jpg

Make sure of three things: (1) The edges of that flat aren't rounded, (2) the washer it interacts with aren't rounded and (3) take the bolt and its corresponding washer and insert one into the other, it shouldn't be able to spin at all, the flats should lock it into place.

hokiefyd 

This info was helpful today. I got my FR-4 freewheel tool and zipped the freewheel off. Indeed, the hub shell has a groove between the spoke flange and the threads. This was helpful for me to figure out this Atom freewheel and the Atom freewheel that came on my '70 Peugeot. The '81 freewheel threads onto the '70 hub, loosely. Even when finger tight, there's a bit of play. And the '70 freewheel will thread onto the '81 hub, but only about halfway, before it begins to bind on the threads.

All of that confirms that my '81 hub and freewheel have British threads and my '70 hub and freewheel have French threads. This opens me up to using modern freewheels on the factory PBN10 wheel if I need or want to. For now, I'll work on cleaning up the factory freewheel and will use it to get the bike back on the road.