A Universal Question
 

I've seen them twice...braze on Universal center pull calipers. I saw them once on a Marastoni that I was outbid on, and once in CDM's garage. Does anyone know if these had a unique model number? How hens tooth are they? For reasons I won't immediately share, I'd like to source a pair.

There's always a possibility they were converted from regular center-mount calipers. People do this regularly with MAFAC and Dia Compe centerpulls.

If they are factory that would intrigue me as well...

I'm not sure...to be honest, I didn't know they were converted regularly.

I've seen these many years ago, though my memory is vague.. I'm not sure that they were conversions back then, though. Rather the frames were intentionally designed with bosses to fit. Sort of a precursor to cantilevers.

I've read that brakes like those work great. I've always been more than happy with regular MAFAC brakes and wonder how much better they can get.

It's been awhile, but I think the Universals I had on the Mariposa were Model 61s.

I didn't have that bike very long, but I recollect we used modded Kool Stop pads.

There was a clearance issue on the front with fenders, so we cut them down to 2/3rds length.

My buddy that refreshed the bike switched them to Compass centerpulls.

Not sure why, but probably because they were shiny and new.

I don't know that the Compass brakeset was an upgrade.

I'll try to get some pics and I'll add them to the thread down the road.

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Fratelli Pietra information online in English is limited.

Possible there may be detailed discussion of this on one or more of the Italian fora.

Another place to check would be the CR email list.

Perhaps [MENTION=383399]MauriceMoss[/MENTION] will have some helpful information...

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It's unclear whether centerpulls or cantilever brakes came first. [MENTION=20650]T-Mar[/MENTION] has done a little research and has found examples of both from the late 1800s. Part of the answer depends on how you define "cantilever" and "centerpull".

Any centerpull brakes utilizing the braze-on studs, regardless if Universal, MAFAC, Dia Compe, etc... require a specific mounting stud placement on the fork and frame, above the wheel. The studs are shorter and a different diameter than cantilever studs (except when using Paul centerpulls, which use standard cantilever studs). When I said "conversion" above, I mean replacing the hardware at the pivots in the brake calipers such that they can fit and pivot around braze-on studs instead of pivoting independently from the frame (as they do when mounted via one central bolt). I didn't mean converting a frame/fork.

Braze-on centerpulls were a popular option on custom and semi-custom frame in France for many decades, and even some production frames, such as Meral and I believe a couple of high-end Peugeot bikes built under contract by smaller builders. They generally use MAFAC brakes, though. I haven't seen Universal centerpulls being used, but I'm sure it's possible with the right pivot hardware.

I think you need to immediately share why you'd like to source a pair. ;)

I continue to be amazed...
How the heck do you guys KNOW SO MUCH???

:foo:

Well, I just make stuff up. It works with clients, and usually the IRS.

If it happens, it's a long ways down the road.

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Sidenote -

Once one gets seven decades back, and beyond, it is possible to encounter both centrepulls and cantilevers whose pivot posts are clamp-ons.


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Going to have a little something built?

No. Probably not. Possibly?

I've learned a lot here.

I get the itch pretty often to have something built, but then I look at the basement full of neat bikes.

It's a-ok to dream. imho

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:50:


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Like TenGrainBread, I suspect these were converted from standard centre-pull models. Brazed-on (aka direct mount) centre-pull brakes, while relatively rare, eliminate the weight and flex of the brake bridge. The latter increases both braking power and modulation. The downside is the added cost of the brazing operation for studs. One can argue the quantitative benefits but it is the nth degree type of detail that appealed to constructeurs and their high end clients.

Typically, when a company manufacturers a direct mount component, they also supply the brazed-on fitting to guarantee compatibility. This is why companies like Campagnolo and Shimano offered dropouts and shift lever bosses. Consequently, if a company offered direct mount brakes, you would expect to see matching bosses and this is the case when you look at the cantilevers in a MAFAC catalogue. Dia-Compe catalogues show brazed-on fittings for both their cantilever and centre-pull models (see scan) but the entries for the centre-pull brakes makes no specific mention of direct mount versions. This suggests that Dia-Compe considered demand for direct mount centre-pull brakes to be so small that they were either non-catalogued special orders or manufacturer conversions. Often, with niche products, it's less expensive for large volume manufacturers to offer a standard product than change the manufacturing, packaging and logistics process.

I have seen relatively few Universal catalogues but none that I have seen include direct mount fittings or brakes, either cantilever or centre-pull.

As an aside, I distinctively remember seeing my first direct mount centre-pull brakes, as it made such as impression on me. They were Dia-Compe on a 1976 Centurion Pro Tour.

It's also worth noting the current trend towards direct mount dual pivot brakes as an option to disc brakes, though the forks and stays use recessed threaded fittings, as opposed to protruding studs, as recessed fittings are more appropriate for carbon fibre frames.

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...45e3f9b2c4.jpg

Great post T-mar, and thank you.

I have to admit I'm curious about direct mount dual pivots, but, at the same time, I like going dual front, single rear for the mix of power and modulation. I've never used a dual pivot brake and wished it had more stopping power, so I'm wondering if this is a solution to a problem that doesn't exist.

I (briefly) owned one of those Centurions, but never really rode it. Stunning bike though.

IF I do start looking at this project, I'm still leaning direct mount center pull.

You will find that dual pivots stop with slightly less effort than center pulls, but the difference is small for a strong person like you. Maybe you got a bad sample from dual pivots, because they really are excellent. And I remember Campagnolo's rationale for having a single pivot in the back, but I think it's silly. These brakes are not hard to control. Not that it's a bad setup, either, it's just not necessary or even optimal.

Each choice represents some kind of compromise.

I like dual pivot brakes quite a bit...

I have the campy dual/single combo...and I think they're onto something with it. I have AMPLE stopping power, and I like it's ability to flutter as well.

After Gugificazione mods to the fork of the 1979 Miyata 912, I now have a braze-on centerpull front (so that I could use a front rack, bag, etc.) and bolt-on dual pivot (RX100 in this case) in back. Pads on both ends are Kool Stop salmons. Brake feel/lever travel with Campy/Sachs Ergo levers is good for both brakes. Since this photo, I’ve switched to Kool Stop Cyclocross Linear pads for a better fit against the 23mm wide rim. Works great!

Not sure if Universal 61’s would fit the same pivots, but I was also able to fit MAFAC Racers on the posts that’s [MENTION=381793]gugie[/MENTION] used. I prefer the quieter operation and easier setup of the Dia-Compe (also lighter). Brake feel seems a bit nicer with DC.

https://photos.smugmug.com/Bicycles/...IMG_4502-L.jpg

Developed my mental muscles lifting Schwinn Varsities onto shop racks.

The real reason: I lived through the '80's and '90's, a chaotic time for the bicycle business. Now I'm older than dirt and freely share my hard-won knowledge.