Is this a Ron Cooper frame?
 

short back story: I bought a Fausto Coppi from a guy named Bill in Sidcup, London and he had a garage full of awesomeness--frames/wheels and parts just everywhere. He was an older gentleman/retired and building wheels for a local cycling club at the time. I'd point at a frame that I thought was unique and he could talk for an hour about the frame and its history etc etc. Same with components. I would go to visit him every other weekend and buy something from him and eventually I scored what he said was this Ron Cooper frame. He said he knew Ron personally and even got a bit choked up recalling Ron's passing n' all.

When I got the frame the paint was all but 'burned' off. Bill's method of removing paint was to scorch it off. Don't ask me why. Anyway I took what Bill started and just wire brushed the rest of it down to the bare frame.

A couple of things to note: I don't see a serial # anywhere. The original paint may have been red. The internal cable routing on top tube is 'proper' according to Bill; meaning that there is an additional tube inside of the top tube to house the wire. Bill said that the two addt'l cable-guide braze-on's toward the bottom of the head-tube can be filed off if not desired. Is that normal?

Thanks in advance for any insight and help with idhttps://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...66911037f5.jpg
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...30e1635fda.jpg
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...06bef92486.jpg
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...03d8dc2011.jpg
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...91dc134e89.jpg
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...d6ecc7957e.jpg
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...4abf02a410.jpg
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...46217c291f.jpg
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...94300db616.jpg

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...eebfc305ce.jpg

Nice frame! IIRC, Ron Cooper "signed" his frames with a "dot" punched into the BB shell. If not, someone is sure to be along shortly to correct me.

Anyway, if you haven't done so already, have a look here: The Ron Cooper Thread.

Looks almost Gilco at the DO.

Some links that may be interesting:

Ron Cooper

https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-v...er-thread.html (especially from reply 100+)

The seat stay attachment to the seat lug is classic Cooper, but I think everybody knows that.

I will preface the rest of this by saying I really only know Ron's older work, and this is clearly a newer frame. The way the stays are attached to the dropouts is unfamiliar to me, and I know he was at one time famous for his domed-end stays and fork blades, which he did by hammering them when red hot, and which this frame doesn't have.

Do you have the fork? Mine has a serial stamped on the steerer, if I recall correctly.

Fork
 

Shucks, I do have a fork but now I'm drawing a blank as to whether it came with another frame (Ampelio Sotti) that I also got from Bill or if it came with the above in question... regardless I don't see a number stamped on the fork but here are pics just in case -- the dropouts (correct term on a fork?) are Columbushttps://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...ad6669648f.jpghttps://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...7f08a22c9e.jpg
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...0234b087a6.jpg

...
...here are some lug details from three Ron Cooper bicycles I have had here. there's a shop in Sausalito that sold a bunch of them in NorCal called Bicycle Odyssey. The green one is 70's, the two red ones are 80's. The geometry and the seat stay treatment on yours look promising, but the lug work looks different. That might just be age, but with those two cable loops on the head tube, I don't think your frame is all that ancient.

So I guess I'm not sure one way or the other. I can see why this might make repainting and badging it as a Ron Cooper kind of iffy.


https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...d6e0e3046f.jpg
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...2af9295c35.jpg
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...0ec4261dc5.jpg
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...164a825f9c.jpg
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...5c4569f052.jpg
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...73063119f1.jpg

Thanks for the pics and feedback. Just one note that I bought this in London so I'm not sure if it makes a difference with ones that have been exported to the US.

I have done some digging through image searches and found at least two later Coopers that have dropout/stay attachments like yours. I bet it's the real thing. Surprising how few people take photos of the dropouts!

Wooowsa
 

Thanks for digging and providing some good and very welcoming feedback!
I was hoping with the back-story I gave n' all that people didn't think I doubted Bill in any way but I wanted some clarity in the matter. I've subscribed to the Ron Cooper FB group which was started by his son but that was today and so it may be a minute before I get accepted into that group.

[MENTION=413240]francophile[/MENTION] that first link is very interesting and it turns out Ron's shop was not far from Bill's place in Sidcup SE London.

This frame appears later by the fittings... and kind of plain.
It was my understanding he built in the USA for a long while, could have exported back to the UK, not sure.
What type of bottom bracket threading?
In the image of the bottom bracket adjustable cup, it looked like no threading indication. If Italian... hmmm.
The bottom bracket I think is a Silva (Italy) investment cast unit.
It would press the case better if other Cooper's with Columbus dropouts are around.
The fork is different
The stay ends are different.
The headlugs look a bit "plug and play" to me, typical to me would be more file work.
Other examples with the same rear bridge would push the cause too.

The internal top tube cable ports and the cable rings at the lower head lug are to me, modification later. So, I don't use them for assessment.

Here are the stay ends on the three previously imaged bicycles.
 

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...68d351ada0.jpg
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...9c474f2eff.jpg
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...0971f5ed83.jpg

Thank you for the insight:
I put that BB in myself to save space in getting the bike shipped back to US. It's a Campagnolo and reads 1 370x24TPI BREV INTER.

The fork probably didn't come with this bike but rather with the A. Sotti that I mentioned above. When I shipped everything back to the US, I disassembled all of the bikes to fit into several boxes and thus I was not certain which fork belonged to what (except for the obvious ones) but I'll have another look whether there's another candidate fork that could've come with the frame.

I got accepted to the Ron Cooper FB page and posted a similar thread there just now so I'll report back what comes of it. Thanks again for everyone's feedback. I do plan to build this bike up and ride the heck out of it :)

[MENTION=209177]3alarmer[/MENTION] the last two pics of the DO's look like good candidates in my opinion but I am very much a layman when it comes to bikes

Maybe the original but not unique. For example, note this Eisentraut that's absurdly close in styling

Well, the verdict may be in on this one. Paul Fuller from the Ron Cooper FB page echoed what you all had eluded to:
'I sold a lot of Cooper frames...I met Ron first in 1976, he used to visit my shop in the mid 80’s and use my surface plate and tools to check frames suspected to be “tweaked “ in shipping by the post office. A very kind, sweet, knowledgeable man. Your frame has some Cooper-ish elements: the seatstay treatment, but the frame lacks the finesse details I expect to see on Ron’s frames...the stay treatment at the dropouts isn’t quite as fine as I’d expect from Ron, nor is there the evidence of the thinning of his head lugs on this frame...that doesn’t mean it won’t ride well, though. Paint it, put it together, and see how it feels. I have a couple non -descript frames that no one would look twice at, that ride so well you almost can’t believe it’s possible...'

Thanks also to Paul Brown from the FB page that shared the same views.

I do still plan to build up this bike and ride it as it is for all intents and purposes 'my size' although you never know the perfect size til you try it right? Thanks again everyone for your insight - Case Closed and on to the next mystery frame?

Hang on, don't we need to work out what it actually is?

:lol: I like your motivation [MENTION=201555]P!N20[/MENTION] and in Bill's own words: 'there's so many garage bike-builders out there making frames and flooding the market...' not sure if this one can be assigned to any specific maker and I have never seen a rear stay-bridge (is that what they're called??) like that

Also, no one has eluded to it being similar to some other make which I usually see tons of in forums when folks are trying to pin down the maker of a specific frame but that doesn't mean I am not open to thoughts