650A to 650B
 

Hello,

I have been eyeing some japanese randonneuring bikes lately. There seems to be more examples on the market for a short rider as me. Many of them are originally designed to 650A tires though. I was just wondering if its easy to just use 650b rims and adjust the cantilevers to work on them or does the reach lower so much that it becomes impossible to make it work without moving the studs.


https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...f88bb679bf.jpg

650A is 590 mm diameter and 650B is 584 mm. That's only 3 mm difference in the radius, so I would think most cantilever brakes would have enough adjustment. If they didn't, it would be simpler to swap to different brakes than to move the studs.

Hey Toni- I've used 650b wheels in Japanese 650a frames with cantilever brakes. It works well. There is only a 3mm difference in where the pads need to be.

Yes, the Japanese vintage bike market has much smaller bikes than US or Europe. Plus the Toeis, Alps, and others like the one you posted are beautiful and functional bikes. They tend to be very expensive to get online though.

Be sure to check the fork and rear triangle for tire clearance if you want wider 650b tires. Many 650a sized bikes were for triathlon and getting a 25 mm tire to fit might be tight. Not an issue on a rando bike, but worth checking.

You sure you're not thinking of 650C?

It's weird to me that people call 26 x 1 3/8" tires "650A" now. Most mechanics would have wondered what the hell you were talking about BITD.

Anyhow, +1, most likely they'll adjust to suit either. Many Japanese 80s touring bikes for the American market could switch between 27 and 700, and that's a slightly bigger difference. Worst case scenario would be new brakes required. Personally I'd try to keep it 650A for the coolness. Good tires are still available. It's not like S6.

yes, probably, excuse my mistake.

Best I go check my a, b, c’s.

Rims are a different issue. You only really have two quality options in 650A: Sun CR18 and Arayas (which might be hard to get outside of Japan).

Agreed. I suppose I prefer "650A" since that rules out any confusion with the other 26"x1-3/8" size. "ISO 37-590" might be even better, but people definitely didn't talk like that then (right?), and it feels pedantic, here in C&V. :)

I think you're confusing 650A with 650C. The latter were used for triathalon. Generally when we see 650A it's on an English 3-speed, and labelled 26x1 3/8.

+1.

ToniH. Cool bikes! If only those Japanese were bigger. I've been looking at those bikes too, but nothing off the peg comes even close to my preferred 63-64cm ... :(

Toei still makes 'em "like they used to". They have a "standard" version that can be ordered through dealers and would probably make it in your size. I think the waiting list is about 1.5 years, and with the stock version you are limited to fillet-brazing I think. It's cheaper than a full custom from them but I still think you need deep pockets...

There's one more option, though they are more obscure than the Arayas: Rigida (under Van Schothorst) made single-wall, aluminum 26x1-3/8" (EA3/650A) rims.

These were standard issue on the UK-market Ammaco Monte Carlo 3-speed hybrid from the late '90s, which might easily be overlooked as a bicycle-shaped-object at a co-op. (Not to be confused with the completely unrelated Ammaco Monte Carlo lugged road bike from the mid-1980s).

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...db18ec75b2.jpg
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...2147b8742e.jpg

Gratuitously stolen pic of what said Ammaco looks like when it hasn't been stripped for parts:

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...a3bfa2a786.jpg


-Kurt

Thanks. Yes, I'm sure I could have something custom-made, but as you say that would take a lot of time and money. And if I'm going to spend that kind of money the Rue Victor Hugo is a lot closer ... :)

Fair enough :innocent:

Hi TenGrainBread Your cherubim build is a fantastic example! Thanks for comfirming the break issue. Just as I thought it would be.

I have been drooling over these from japanese yahoo auctions for a while now. Would you happen to have some other sources where to look aswel?

-Toni

Unfortunately I don't think there's any other good source for these bikes besides Yahoo. A couple pop up on eBay from time to time, but mostly not. There is no cheap way to get these unless you get very lucky. The one or two I've gotten from Yahoo I bought as a frame and built with parts on hand. Still not very cheap.

Part of the reason for that is that Japanese framebuilders generally don't care to export their frames or open their order sheet to foreign buyers. This means there are not a lot of these used frames outside of Japan because there aren't a lot of new ones going out of Japan. They have enough demand domestically and don't want or need to figure out how to cater to non-Japanese-speakers ordering bikes. It's a tricky process, fulfilling an order correctly for someone overseas who does not speak the language - these bikes are custom and if you can't take the riders measurements or communicate their preferences well, that provides a barrier. A lot of Westerners interested in these frames travel to Japan to order and pick up the bikes.

Builders like Cherubim and Toei have a few bike shops around the world that can help place an order. I know that Cherubim has a "dealer" in Canada and in England, not sure about the US. They are very customer-focused, with a couple of retail shops and English-speakers at the company. They also build hundreds of frames a year (I think mostly for Keirin riders at this point). Similarly, Toei can be ordered from a select few of bike shops outside of Japan. Jitensha Studio in California is one such shop. Kalavinka used to take foreign orders but these overwhelmed their business and so they went back to just domestic orders.

The smaller builders, like Amanda, Alps, Jingane Pegasus, Watanabe, Sannow, Hirose, and some of the Keirin builders like Samson and Bomber Pro don't (or didn't) have the resources to do that.

By the way - on the 650A rim availability tangent, I almost forgot one recent development: The second-generation Spin dockless bicycles use 26 x 1-3/8" drop center rims with machined braking surfaces (and solid tires). I believe they're dual wall and hooked bead too; I've got a rough Gen 2 in my office right now (donated to our program; read on) as a gopher bike and may convert it to tubes, so I'll know eventually.

https://bikesharemuseum.com/bikes/2017-spin-gen-2/
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...46f131f675.jpg

I know this is an extremely obscure opportunity for many C&V'ers, but there are a few markets where Spin has left (or renewed contracts only for scooters) and may have donated them. Case in point, I recently worked with Spin to get these two donated to the Bike Share Museum, along with a number of others to the non-profit that I work at.

There's also the possibility abandoned examples may wind up at co-ops eventually in cities such as Seattle, where Spin pulled bicycle a year ago. Pays to be sure though; San Diego just got 500 bikes from the former Miami fleet - apparently there's a market where dockless analog bike share remains popular.

EDIT, two years later: Yes, they're dual wall. These rims also shed beyond belief. Machined brake surface or not, these particular rims don't do well with rim brakes (even though that's how they're config'ed on the Spins). Highly recommend relegating these to drum or disc applications.

-Kurt