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Colnago Master Columbus Gilco vs Colnago Master Columbus Gilco Tubing Tubing

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Colnago Master Columbus Gilco vs Colnago Master Columbus Gilco Tubing Tubing

Old 12-17-19, 08:31 AM
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joesch
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Colnago Master Columbus Gilco vs Colnago Master Columbus Gilco Tubing Tubing

I love the Colnago bikes and really enjoy riding my Super and C40/50 models.

Looking to either add a Master, either the Gilco or Titanio tubed model and pretty sure both would be awesome rides.

How do these rides compares:

Colnago Master Columbus Gilco Tubing
vs
Colnago Titanio Columbus Titanium Tubing

As far as comparing the Super and C40/50 models, the newer models are improved as expected with lighter and stiffer performance.

I also have campy record components on all the above models and the shifting is improved on each newer model, lighter and quicker.
I do really love TI tubing especially since it will outlast steel and carbon given accident avoidance.

Not really lots of info on the Gilco tubing, but those models have won many world championships over a decade so must be great.
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Old 12-17-19, 08:52 AM
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Colnago has the Bititan and Oval Titan models.

The Bititan is a unique piece of engineering history, but there are a lot of notes that they frames were particularly flexible.

Titanium does crack and is subject to fatigue issues. It is hard to get real numbers of fatigue vs crash damage, vs poor welds??? But if you can prevent rust, I wouldn't count on the Titan frames outlasting the Mater or Master X-Light frames.
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Old 12-17-19, 10:54 AM
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Don't know the difference between the two mentioned models. I knew someone who bought a double down tube model. He stated they tend to fail near the BB. His was purchased with that condition. Had it repaired.
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Old 12-17-19, 11:49 AM
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Flex and cracking are two things I've heard a lot about the colnago ti bikes. Don't know if that's just the stories that show up on the internet and are more likely to be remembered or not, but I personally would go for the master gilco.
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Old 12-17-19, 05:37 PM
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Just to mentioned that Ti and ferrous alloys, contrary to aluminium, have an endurance limit below which the fatigue life is infinite. The endurance limit of these alloys is generally much higher than the stress seen by a bike frame. This is why we can still enjoy our vintage steel frames!! However, titanium needs to be weld with a lot of care so problems with Ti frames can certainly comes from bad welding.

I personnel enjoy my Colnago Master Piu with the famous Gilco tubes
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Old 12-18-19, 10:33 AM
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TI vs. Gilco

Not apples to apples but my 2 cents

I've had 2 "Gilco" type bikes, a C-era Daccordi, with Oria tubing, which rode like a dream, transferring power, but not rattling my teeth on NJ roads (using record/mavic/tubie wheels). Very nice ascender/ stable descender for old 165# guy. Sold in the fall, and miss it. Also stunning appearance (if that matters).

New fall purchase Rossin Ghibli. Rossin crimped his own tubes- these are SLX. I rode it a bit before dissasembling. Sweetly responsive, very happy so far, but not enough miles,though Ghibli owners seem "pleased" with them... I don't ride my Ti much in comparison, but partly 'cause it's a TT set-up.


Outlast? Steel seems to be hanging on pretty well, absent rust/crash issues. BTW with steel, most crash issues can be satisfactorily resolved, from a riding perspective, than ti, anyway.


PS- lest anyone say "Ah, but Colnago" I have an uncrimped early 80's "Mexico" and a 73 Super. I gotta say the Daccordi felt more zoom-zoom to me. Not an ounce of data to support this, except that the Daccordi was red.
Cheers, Eric



Originally Posted by joesch View Post
I love the Colnago bikes and really enjoy riding my Super and C40/50 models.


Looking to either add a Master, either the Gilco or Titanio tubed model and pretty sure both would be awesome rides.


How do these rides compares:



Colnago Master Columbus Gilco Tubing

Colnago Titanio Columbus Titanium Tubing


As far as comparing the Super and C40/50 models, the newer models are improved as expected with lighter and stiffer performance.


I also have campy record components on all the above models and the shifting is improved on each newer model, lighter and quicker.

I do really love TI tubing especially since it will outlast steel and carbon given accident avoidance.


Not really lots of info on the Gilco tubing, but those models have won many world championships over a decade so must be great.

Last edited by Last ride 76; 12-18-19 at 10:41 AM.
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Old 12-18-19, 10:40 AM
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Thread title made me look

No clue.
My Colnago is a normal bike.
My weird bikes are carbon.
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Old 12-19-19, 09:35 AM
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Originally Posted by RobbieTunes View Post
No clue.
My Colnago is a normal bike.
My weird bikes are carbon.
So is your normal steel, TI or AL, obvious from above not carbon.
I suspect steel and maybe Columbus SL?
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Old 12-19-19, 09:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Last ride 76 View Post
Not apples to apples but my 2 cents

I've had 2 "Gilco" type bikes, a C-era Daccordi, with Oria tubing, which rode like a dream, transferring power, but not rattling my teeth on NJ roads (using record/mavic/tubie wheels). Very nice ascender/ stable descender for old 165# guy. Sold in the fall, and miss it. Also stunning appearance (if that matters).

New fall purchase Rossin Ghibli. Rossin crimped his own tubes- these are SLX. I rode it a bit before dissasembling. Sweetly responsive, very happy so far, but not enough miles,though Ghibli owners seem "pleased" with them... I don't ride my Ti much in comparison, but partly 'cause it's a TT set-up.


Outlast? Steel seems to be hanging on pretty well, absent rust/crash issues. BTW with steel, most crash issues can be satisfactorily resolved, from a riding perspective, than ti, anyway.


PS- lest anyone say "Ah, but Colnago" I have an uncrimped early 80's "Mexico" and a 73 Super. I gotta say the Daccordi felt more zoom-zoom to me. Not an ounce of data to support this, except that the Daccordi was red.
Cheers, Eric
As you may have noticed from my bikes, I also have a 50th Daccordi which is SLX and its a very nice ride. The frame build and pantos are artwork to behold. The master is very much in the same regard as far as a classic frame lugsmanship
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Old 12-19-19, 09:58 AM
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Originally Posted by fraba View Post
Just to mentioned that Ti and ferrous alloys, contrary to aluminium, have an endurance limit below which the fatigue life is infinite. The endurance limit of these alloys is generally much higher than the stress seen by a bike frame.
This is a bit of a myth. Many steel frames do fail by fatigue, and the development of newer steels has generally sought not just higher strength, but also greater fatigue life. Reynolds H.M. tubing had roughly twice the fatigue life of Reynolds A, and 531 had roughly twice as much as H.M. Later development of the air hardening grades like 853 also focused on improved fatigue life. Many aluminum frames have longer fatigue life than steel under high sprint type loads as well. If aluminum were that bad in fatigue life, we wouldn't be using aluminum components, like handlebars which can flex noticeably.

That being said, to achieve good fatigue resistance, aluminum is typically built up stiff, and steel, even if past the endurance limit, seems to respond better when treated as a flexible spring, one reason springs are rarely made from aluminum, but commonly made from steel.
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Old 12-20-19, 11:20 AM
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Originally Posted by joesch View Post
As you may have noticed from my bikes, I also have a 50th Daccordi which is SLX and its a very nice ride. The frame build and pantos are artwork to behold. The master is very much in the same regard as far as a classic frame lugsmanship
I did, and those bikes are stunners for sure. (If looks matter) I think that the heavily crimped tubes played a role in the ride quality, though again, I have nothing more than my opinion.

Shaman wheels are not exactly period correct. So Sue me. Get the Gilcos.
The closer you got to this bike, the better it looked.

Last edited by Last ride 76; 12-20-19 at 11:32 AM.
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Old 12-22-19, 11:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Last ride 76 View Post
I did, and those bikes are stunners for sure. (If looks matter) I think that the heavily crimped tubes played a role in the ride quality, though again, I have nothing more than my opinion.

Shaman wheels are not exactly period correct. So Sue me. Get the Gilcos.
The closer you got to this bike, the better it looked.
That Daccordi is not Gilco or Titanio but still a classic metal machine IMO and I do like the Shaman wheels, although "not exactly period correct" ? Guessing it would not really qualify for the Eroica ride? Pretty close and I still admire and would complement.
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Old 12-22-19, 12:33 PM
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I've never ridden on, but I love my Fauxnago with the crimped Alle tubing

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Old 12-22-19, 04:02 PM
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I worked as a framebuilder making Ti frames, and we also did repairs, so I got to see how other brands broke. We repaired two Colnagos and I was not impressed. I hear they were welded in Russia not Italy, but that's hearsay, I don't trust it 100%. Bi-Titan seemed to me to especially bad because the twin downtubes idea is so dumb.

Note above it was the shaped toptube that broke. Might have lasted forever if a plain round tube had been used instead!

I'm also a downer about shaped tubes like Gilco. IMHO that means taking a perfectly good round (cylindrical) tube and ruining it. (OK "ruining" is slightly too strong a word!). That a plain cylindrical tube is the best shape for torsional stress can be proven mathematically, and was known as far back as the late 1800s. Ask any mechanical engineer. (Also the best for bending forces, when the bending can come from any direction. I-beam being better for pure bending in one plane.)

Yes many people love their Gilco-tubes frames, and races were won on them, but of course that doesn't prove anything beyond the fact that the tubes weren't completely ruined by the goofy shapes. Also the fact that the shaped tubes went away (evolutionary dead-end), doesn't prove anything, but I do think it's indicative. In the end, ride one and decide for yourself. But for me, shaped tubes = pure marketing gimmick.

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Old 12-22-19, 09:39 PM
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Originally Posted by bulgie View Post
I worked as a framebuilder making Ti frames, and we also did repairs, so I got to see how other brands broke. We repaired two Colnagos and I was not impressed. I hear they were welded in Russia not Italy, but that's hearsay, I don't trust it 100%. Bi-Titan seemed to me to especially bad because the twin downtubes idea is so dumb.



Note above it was the shaped toptube that broke. Might have lasted forever if a plain round tube had been used instead!


I'm also a downer about shaped tubes like Gilco. IMHO that means taking a perfectly good round (cylindrical) tube and ruining it. (OK "ruining" is slightly too strong a word!). That a plain cylindrical tube is the best shape for torsional stress can be proven mathematically, and was known as far back as the late 1800s. Ask any mechanical engineer. (Also the best for bending forces, when the bending can come from any direction. I-beam being better for pure bending in one plane.)


Yes many people love their Gilco-tubes frames, and races were won on them, but of course that doesn't prove anything beyond the fact that the tubes weren't completely ruined by the goofy shapes. Also the fact that the shaped tubes went away (evolutionary dead-end), doesn't prove anything, but I do think it's indicative. In the end, ride one and decide for yourself. But for me, shaped tubes = pure marketing gimmick.


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As I said I have ZERO data.

One point of your argument is a little less than ironclad. Gilco type crimped tubes were an evolutionary dead end, - as more aero and MS shaped Nivachrome tubes like the ones Serotta used, those became the cutting edge along with 753, 853 Aluminum, Carbon blah, blah blah. Those crimped tubes could be said to be the final (and winning) iteration of Columbus SLX for leading pro builders, like Ernesto, and Rossin. The evolutionary dead end was the lower strength, low temp brazed steel.


Cheers, Eric I'm open to correction...(I'm not a frame builder or an engineer of any type.)
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Old 12-22-19, 10:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Last ride 76 View Post
As I said I have ZERO data.

One point of your argument is a little less than ironclad. Gilco type crimped tubes were an evolutionary dead end, - as more aero and MS shaped Nivachrome tubes like the ones Serotta used, those became the cutting edge along with 753, 853 Aluminum, Carbon blah, blah blah. Those crimped tubes could be said to be the final (and winning) iteration of Columbus SLX for leading pro builders, like Ernesto, and Rossin. The evolutionary dead end was the lower strength, low temp brazed steel.


Cheers, Eric I'm open to correction...(I'm not a frame builder or an engineer of any type.)
Yeah, as I said, "ride one and decide for yourself. But for me..." (emphasis added)
No one can disprove your theory. I have my biases, but I never claimed ironclad.

I do think though, if the Gilco-style shaping made a metal-tube frame stiffer, or ride better, or whatever the claim was, then someone would still be doing that today in whatever steel tubes are still used on high-end bikes. I know, that's not many, but whatever steel tubes are used nowadays, they're all round.
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Old 12-23-19, 11:00 AM
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Originally Posted by bulgie View Post
but whatever steel tubes are used nowadays, they're all round.
Colnago is still using crimped tubes on the Master
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