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Boom Bikes Post-Boomers

Old 12-26-19, 11:53 AM
  #76  
jackbombay
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Originally Posted by tashi View Post
exactly! The practical road bike has returned, with the benefit of 30 years of progress.
How much faster does that 30 years of progress make the new $4000 bike compared to the Miyata 1000? Almost none? This is why I believe that there has been essentially no advancement in road bikes in the last several decades.

EDIT to add, road bikes are simple, there isn't any notable advancement that can be made to road bikes to make them faster so I don't expect the bike industry to make them faster, I just chuckle at how much money they wring out of people wallets selling them stuff that is supposedly faster.

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Old 12-26-19, 11:56 AM
  #77  
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Originally Posted by scarlson View Post
Need I mention again? Vitus 979. Or if we wanna go further back, how bout Barra and Caminade?

The difference is that now comfortable and efficient aluminum is no longer the exception but common.

*A $500 used hydro formed aluminum bike has entered the chat, and it brought STI, a threadless front end and 2 fewer pounds with him*
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Old 12-26-19, 12:00 PM
  #78  
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Originally Posted by tashi View Post
The difference is that now comfortable and efficient aluminum is no longer the exception but common.
Aluminum is for beer cans ;-)

Originally Posted by tashi View Post
*A $500 used hydro formed aluminum bike has entered the chat, and it brought STI, a threadless front end and 2 fewer pounds with him*
*A slightly more fit rider on a miyata 1000 has entered the chat and just dropped the $500 aluminum bike on a climb like it was tied to a tree*
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Old 12-26-19, 12:00 PM
  #79  
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Originally Posted by jackbombay View Post
How much faster does that 30 years of progress make the new $4000 bike compared to the Miyata 1000? Almost none? This is why I believe that there has been essentially no advancement in road bikes in the last several decades.
No need to spend $4000, many of these bikes around $2k.
How much faster depends on how fast you ride, and bikes have more than one metric.

Your mind is made up it seems, but itís clear to many others that there have been many gains in the last 30 years.
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Old 12-26-19, 12:14 PM
  #80  
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Originally Posted by tashi View Post
No need to spend $4000, many of these bikes around $2k.
Sure, and is that $2000 bike actually any more efficient than the Miyata 1000? Not enough to actually make any difference?

Originally Posted by tashi View Post
Your mind is made up it seems, but itís clear to many others that there have been many gains in the last 30 years.
Easy shifting/index shifting is seemingly the only gain, other than that what gains have been made?
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Old 12-26-19, 12:17 PM
  #81  
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Originally Posted by jackbombay View Post
Sure, and is that $2000 bike actually any more efficient than the Miyata 1000? Not enough to actually make any difference?



Easy shifting/index shifting is seemingly the only gain, other than that what gains have been made?
Since youíre not interested in reasonable discussion I suggest that you open your mind and go take a demo bike out and find out for yourself.

Good day.
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Old 12-26-19, 01:30 PM
  #82  
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Originally Posted by tashi View Post
Since you’re not interested in reasonable discussion I suggest that you open your mind and go take a demo bike out and find out for yourself.

Good day.
I'm actually with Jack on this and I have demo'd modern bikes. In short it was a Trek Domane I tried just a couple of years ago to see how it handled the rough chipseal I ride on. I even went so far as to put on a set of my wheels/tires and saddle. The bike still could not compete with many of my steel bikes on the rough section's of road and certainly was not any faster.

I'l also point out that I have had a couple of modern C.F bikes. Namely a Scott CR1 Pro, a Trek Madone 4.5, and a Trek Madone 5.9. After several years I went through my daily ride logs and just couldn't find any data that the C.F. bikes were any faster under me than my steel ones. In fact the longer the rides went the better the overall pace on the steel rides was. As also put notes down about how I feel at the end of rides. A common them was refreshed and ready for more on the steel bikes and beat up and tired on the C.F. ones. Then before finally selling off the C.F. bikes I did centuries on Saturdays for about a 6 week period. Same route, etc. The faster times were on the steel bikes and I definetely felt better at the end of the century's done on steel. Enough for my needs so I sold off the C.F. bikes. Reality is what it is.

Now all that said. I did pick up an old NOS Trek Y-Foil and used it this summer for a very fun, fast, and comfortable 100 miler.

Another interesting note is that many of my PR rides on route's I ride regularly were accomplished without being on one of my 11 speed bikes. Not even sure if any are set with my 10 speed ones. For sure many have been pulled off on the ones sporting 8 and 9 speeds having a massive number of gears obviously isn't that big of a deal to me either. Anyway, food for thought from someone with an open mind.
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Old 12-26-19, 01:48 PM
  #83  
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Well, there are plenty of modern steel frame bikes out there, particularly in the touring/gravel category. So new does not have to mean CF. The Marin Four Corners Elite is pretty intriguing.

If you are OK with mechanical disc brakes, then the Kona Wheelhouse with a Reynolds 853 frame looks pretty interesting too.

There is also a CHROME bikes direct, Reynolds 520 frame, hydraulic disk brakes, etc. Mercier Kilo GX R20. Since the chrome is just a $50 adder, I have to wonder about the quality of the chrome. But still, a modern steel chrome bike for $1049 is pretty incredible.

https://www.jensonusa.com/Marin-Four...iABEgI5EvD_BwE


https://www.jensonusa.com/Marin-Four...iABEgI5EvD_BwE

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Old 12-26-19, 02:07 PM
  #84  
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Originally Posted by jackbombay View Post



Easy shifting/index shifting is seemingly the only gain, other than that what gains have been made?
...wheel rotating weights and rim weights have come a long way, but frames are a different deal. I do enjoy updating the rims on the older bikes I ride, but I'm riding mostly clinchers. Not sure that if you're willing to deal with tubulars there's that much difference exxcept for the availability of plastic rims...........which is just a step too far for my needs.
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Old 12-26-19, 02:11 PM
  #85  
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Originally Posted by wrk101 View Post
Well, there are plenty of modern steel frame bikes out there, particularly in the touring/gravel category. So new does not have to mean CF. The Marin Four Corners Elite is pretty intriguing.

...this is the most moderne steel bike I've ever owned. It's a decent ride, but when I get on it I feel like one of the hippo's from Fantasia.


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Old 12-26-19, 02:18 PM
  #86  
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Originally Posted by jamesdak View Post
I'm actually with Jack on this and I have demo'd modern bikes. In short it was a Trek Domane I tried just a couple of years ago to see how it handled the rough chipseal I ride on. I even went so far as to put on a set of my wheels/tires and saddle. The bike still could not compete with many of my steel bikes on the rough section's of road and certainly was not any faster.

I'l also point out that I have had a couple of modern C.F bikes. Namely a Scott CR1 Pro, a Trek Madone 4.5, and a Trek Madone 5.9. After several years I went through my daily ride logs and just couldn't find any data that the C.F. bikes were any faster under me than my steel ones. In fact the longer the rides went the better the overall pace on the steel rides was. As also put notes down about how I feel at the end of rides. A common them was refreshed and ready for more on the steel bikes and beat up and tired on the C.F. ones. Then before finally selling off the C.F. bikes I did centuries on Saturdays for about a 6 week period. Same route, etc. The faster times were on the steel bikes and I definetely felt better at the end of the century's done on steel. Enough for my needs so I sold off the C.F. bikes. Reality is what it is.

Now all that said. I did pick up an old NOS Trek Y-Foil and used it this summer for a very fun, fast, and comfortable 100 miler.

Another interesting note is that many of my PR rides on route's I ride regularly were accomplished without being on one of my 11 speed bikes. Not even sure if any are set with my 10 speed ones. For sure many have been pulled off on the ones sporting 8 and 9 speeds having a massive number of gears obviously isn't that big of a deal to me either. Anyway, food for thought from someone with an open mind.
Im not sure why you guys keep bringing up speed. I talked about how comfortable, practical bikes are now widely available in whatever material you want. I also alluded to how the marginal gains in speed are felt more by faster, more competitive riders.

My suggestion was to demo comfy modern gravel bikes to get a feel for how much of an improvement has happened with the last 30 years of tech.

The modern carbon bikes you mention are race bikes, of course they ride tougher than old steel.
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Old 12-26-19, 02:42 PM
  #87  
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Originally Posted by jackbombay View Post
Well, a 25 year old mountain bike is somewhat useless compared to a new mountain bike because suspension plays such a huge role in mountain biking and suspension has gotten really really good over the last 25 years, you can run over so much stuff now that you used to have to steer around, or bunny hop over.

But, a 25 year old road bike is still VERY capable compared to a new road bike.



A long list of farkles that the bike industry offers for sale is not proof that "advancements" have been made, its only proof that they are good at continually inventing "new" stuff to sell you to keep their profit margins up.

Whats really funny is that wider tires is in now way new or an advancement, 27x 1 1/4" is the original 32c tire, why did people quit using them? Because the bike industry steered people away from them, and now they're steering people back to them, but in 700c form.

As for thru axles being new, every solid axle bike I've ever owned had thru axles, I have a 1970s Campy track hub with a thru axle at home too!

Here's my recent experience, I've owned a middle of the road specialized Roubaix for a bit over a year, it cost $3000 new, but I got it for $900 barely used, I have 3000 miles or so on it, I don't care much about "the correct way to train" as I don't race, I essentially have 2 settings when I ride my bike, "almost pinned", and "pinned". So, I can look at my strava results and know pretty easily how much of a difference different bikes make, and I ride all sorts of odd bikes on long rides and bikes that should be slower on Strava are always slower on Strava, but that just changed. I recently picked up a 1972 Raleigh Super Course and have been hammering on it the last 4 days, and somehow this bike has taken some notable bites out of several of my PRs that I set on my carbon road bike, PRs that I set when I was in better shape than I am now, I'm pretty puzzled by this actually, but Strava doesn't lie, I' mnot going to be bummed that I'm faster on a sweet old steel bike than my carbon bike, but it does make me more skeptical of the latest "advancements" the bike industry is trying to sell me... I consider the Super Course to be a middle of the road road bike for its time just as my Roubaix is a middle of the road road bike for when it was new, so this is, IMO an apples to apples comparison, and the Super Course is not measurably slower than my fairly new carbon bike (2015).

In summary, it's my belief that with 2 riders of the same age a slightly more fit rider on a top of the line road bike from 25 years ago will walk away from a slightly less fit rider on a top of the line carbon bike from today. Or, if you take 2 riders that are at say %90 percentile for their age and one is 4 or 5 years younger, and you put the younger rider on a sweet steel road bike that is 25 years old and the slightly older rider on a sweet new carbon road bike, the older rider will get dropped.




How much faster are you on the same segments on the Carrera compared to the Giant?



Yea, any new bike will ride beautifully, it just probably won't be measurably faster in real world settings..

What cracks me up about the bike industry is all the effort they put into making carbon frames have compliance in all the right spots while being stiff in other places all in an attempt to create a more comfortable ride, but that more comfortable ride is actually so cheap and easy to aquire, just let some air out of your tires, with 27 x 1 1/4" 55 PSI up front make the bike ride like its floating on clouds, and the tire is big enough that I still have plenty of rim protection, why did bikes get uncomfortable? Because the bike industry pushed everything to 23c tires and 110 PSI, and now its all coming full circle back to larger volume tires and lower pressures.

Its crazy how many things the bike industry is currently touting as "new" that are present on my Super Course, narrower drop bars? Check. Larger volume tires? Check. Hookless rims? Check. A self trimming front derailleur ala Di2? Yea, yesterday I ordered a set of suntour Symetric shifters off ebay which auto trims the front derailleur. And I'll probably put a solid "thru" axle in the back of the bike too as the current QR axle is bent and I'm fine carrying a cut off 15mm wrench for rear flat changing capacity. This bike should really be called "Nostradamus"!



I understand that for sure, my carbon road bike does ride really nice, but if I can't drop someone when I ride my super course I wouldn't be able to drop them on my carbon bike either, but it will be so much more fun to drop people on my Super Course :-)
My goodness there is so much in this post. Lets do some bullet points, shall we?
- Agreed that a 25yo road bike can be very capable(comparable) to a new road bike. However, though it is just as capable, it isnt as convenient for many cyclists. Reality is that STI shifting is more convenient/enjoyable than downtube shifting. Also, STI was around 25 years ago, but something tells me you arent referring to STI shifting with your 25yo bike example. Downtube shifters are simply not as popular as STI with current cyclists and if you give them the choice, basically nobody wants to get rid of STI. So yes while both bikes may be equally capable, that doesnt mean things havent measurably changed.
- Sure, I will agree that some advancements in cycling seem to be ways to differentiate current year models from prior year models in order to sell units. I disagree that the goal of advancements is always to just sell more units though.
- Every solid axle bike youve owned has had thru axles?!?! Really? I want pics of this.
- Good job listing a long example to prove your point that old bikes are capable of keeping up with new bikes. Again, there is more to a bicycle than just all out speed. And even if speed is what you want and its the same, why should it wrong to want something newer?
- Oh look, you give another hypothetical where speed is the only parameter for determining if an old bike is 'equal' to a new bike. Ok then, noted.
- I agree that the industry is funny in that they make frames uncomfortably stiff and then engineer comfort into the frames when that same level of comfort is available in a significantly less engineered frame thats steel.
- A 32mm tire at 55psi would be really squirrely for me, and is there one in 27" that actually rolls fast? I honestly dont know as the only 27s Ive used were some Panaracer Pasela tires that were less than impressive.
- Ha ha, your comparing new trends to whats on your Super Course is the laugh of the afternoon.
1- narrower drop bars are because trends are a pendulum and they went wide over the prior 7 years so now its swinging back a bit. Even still, the wide bars are still available. I have never understood why 64cm bikes from decades ago used 38mm bars and will never want something so narrow. Currently we have a huge bar selection which is better than it used to be. Dont use the wide availability of sizes to claim your bike is what current bikes are trying to emulate.
2- larger volume tires are absolutely popular right now. 28s are about as wide as most hard riders will go/can go, and recreational enthusiasts have gone wider. The key here is quality supple tires with low rolling resistance casing/tread. That key is what separates it from anything your bike was designed for or capable of using back in the day.
3- Hookless rims are popular right now for an entirely different reason than why your bike has them. More importantly, the design of the rims are completely different. Again, modern tech isnt trying to emulate what your bike used.
4- Oh goodness, are you really citing friction shifting Symetric as being equal to or comparable to Di2? They arent even similar in any way. I am not saying one is better than the other, but I am saying they arent in any way similar. Di2 isnt like Symetric shifting at all and the industry is absolutely correct to tout Di2 as new(well they were correct to do that a decade ago when it came out).
- A nutted axle isnt a thru axle. My gosh, what is happening here?!? You are either trolling or completely clueless. Either way, its sad.


A bike doesnt need to be faster to be better. Perhaps its more comfortable. Perhaps it can carry more gear. Perhaps it looks better. This is a hobby and all those reasons and more are valid for why some prefer newer bikes even if they arent any faster.
What isnt valid is to claim Di2 and friction Symetric are the same thing. What isnt valid is to claim a nutted axle is a thru axle. Claiming those things just reinforces what some think of those who enjoy older frames and bikes.
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Old 12-26-19, 02:50 PM
  #88  
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Originally Posted by Bad Lag View Post
What do you think will happen to 20th century steel bikes in the post-Boomer times to come?
I ask because I have no interest in the more modern bikes - from the late 80's through current production steel or aluminum or titanium and no interest in carbon fiber bikes.
I have some historical interest in the Wright brothers and other pre-war bikes but it is an intellectual rather than visceral connection.
I have owned and ridden steel my entire life. As I perceive it, bikes reached their pinnacle in the early to middle 1970's. Prior to that, the componentry wasn't quite up to snuff. After that, they became "too good" - soulless, dead, cookie cutter mass production.
I bet 20th century bikes will continue to be more and more scarce as the years go on. Some will be thrown due to damage, some will be passed on and not valued only to eventually be tossed, and the rest will be hoarded by forum members!
Unfortunately for you, bikes that are past their pinnacle are what will continue to be more readily available. The quality frames from the 80s that you consider to be soulless and dead are the ones that will remain relatively popular due to their quality materials, quality construction, and near universal ability to build with modern components. In the 80s, spacing is modern or near modern, there are 2(or 3) bottle cage mounts, and tubing became more advanced. Thats appealing to many.

Its always interesting to see where someone falls on the spectrum of C&V and why they are in that spot. I find some carbon bikes to be dead and soulless due to the material and engineering(made to be stiff). But then you find bikes from the 80s to be the same thing for your reasons. Nothing is right or wrong, its just interesting.
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Old 12-26-19, 03:29 PM
  #89  
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Originally Posted by tashi View Post
Im not sure why you guys keep bringing up speed. I talked about how comfortable, practical bikes are now widely available in whatever material you want. I also alluded to how the marginal gains in speed are felt more by faster, more competitive riders.

My suggestion was to demo comfy modern gravel bikes to get a feel for how much of an improvement has happened with the last 30 years of tech.

The modern carbon bikes you mention are race bikes, of course they ride tougher than old steel.
LOL, Domane with H2 Geometry is marketed as their comfortable road bike. And I too am clearly talking about comfort. My steel rides so much more comfortably on the rough chipseal roads which then allows for the greater speed.
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Old 12-26-19, 03:35 PM
  #90  
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Originally Posted by mstateglfr View Post
Its always interesting to see where someone falls on the spectrum of C&V and why they are in that spot. I find some carbon bikes to be dead and soulless due to the material and engineering(made to be stiff). But then you find bikes from the 80s to be the same thing for your reasons. Nothing is right or wrong, its just interesting.
What always amazes me is how some feel that since you like one kind of bike, you must dislike the other. Personally, I like riding BIKES. I currently ride modern steel and aluminum mountain bikes, an 80's steel mountain bike, 80's and 90's steel road bikes, a 2000's aluminum BMX, a "modern" steel CX/touring bike, a 70's steel sport touring bike...they all do an excellent job at what I ask of them, and some are even nice to look at.
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Old 12-26-19, 03:49 PM
  #91  
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Originally Posted by jamesdak View Post
LOL, Domane with H2 Geometry is marketed as their comfortable road bike. And I too am clearly talking about comfort. My steel rides so much more comfortably on the rough chipseal roads which then allows for the greater speed.
Yep, and chipseal is a rougher surface than what the Domane is designed for. Your results are not surprising.

If you want to try a comfortable and fast modern bike for chipseal, I suggest trying a gravel bike with a lightweight carbon frame that's been designed with comfort in mind, not a road bike for people who want to sit up a little more than on their race bike.
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Old 12-26-19, 04:34 PM
  #92  
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I find it impossible to generalize about any tubing material as the quality if the ride has to do with so many variables in addition to frame material. Case in point: I had a 90s Merlin Ti bike that just had a wonderful ride, great mix of light weight, reasonably aggressive geometry, but really stable handling. Unfortunately it was a tad too small for me and could barely fit 25mm tires, which left me feeling pretty beat up after 100k to 200k rides. So I sold it. Last year I bought a Carver Ti frame with the plan to swap over the components that had been on the Merlin. It’s my lightest bike, a shade under 20 lbs, but it has a remarkably sluggish ride, not even in the same neighborhood as the Merlin. I’ll be selling it come spring (and bought a steel-framed bike to fill that niche!).
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Old 12-26-19, 05:49 PM
  #93  
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Originally Posted by tashi View Post
Im not sure why you guys keep bringing up speed.
Because it's not subjective, and because it is related directly to the efficiency of the frame.

Originally Posted by tashi View Post
My suggestion was to demo comfy modern gravel bikes to get a feel for how much of an improvement has happened with the last 30 years of tech.
.
But almost none of that comfort improvement is in the frame, its all in the 38c tire with 40 psi in it.

Originally Posted by mstateglfr View Post
You are either trolling or completely clueless. Either way, its sad.
Thanks for the insult!

Originally Posted by tashi View Post
Personally, I like riding BIKES.
I probably ride more varied bikes than you, my list of bikes that I have ridden at least half centuries on, if not full centuries, 2018 Transition Scout MTB(aluminum), 2015 Specialized Roubaix(carbon), 1985 Dahon with 16" wheels (steel), my home made tall bike pretty much all parts from the 1900's ;-) (Its steel too), a 1963 hercules 3 speed I did a full resto mod build on 15 year ago. I can appreciate different characteristics of any bike/drivetrain, but I do get a good chuckle out of how little bikes have actually improved over the last 30 years, especially considering how expensive they are now.
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Old 12-26-19, 06:05 PM
  #94  
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Originally Posted by tashi View Post
Yep, and chipseal is a rougher surface than what the Domane is designed for. Your results are not surprising.

If you want to try a comfortable and fast modern bike for chipseal, I suggest trying a gravel bike with a lightweight carbon frame that's been designed with comfort in mind, not a road bike for people who want to sit up a little more than on their race bike.
Had to check and make sure this was C&V. This thread feels so much like the silliness that goes on in the road forum.
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Old 12-26-19, 06:23 PM
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Originally Posted by jamesdak View Post
Had to check and make sure this was C&V. This thread feels so much like the silliness that goes on in the road forum.
Heh, I'm sure the modern bicycle industry will gladly sell a person 6 different road bikes, each one specifically designed for ever so slightly different variations is asphalt texture!
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Old 12-26-19, 06:27 PM
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Originally Posted by jamesdak View Post
Had to check and make sure this was C&V. This thread feels so much like the silliness that goes on in the road forum.
Or A&S - wait, it hasn't quite gotten to that level yet

DD
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Old 12-26-19, 06:41 PM
  #97  
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Originally Posted by jackbombay View Post
Thanks for the insult!
what other conclusions besides those two could I come to? You claim all your bikes from decades ago are thru axle and compare technology like Di2 to symetric friction shifting.
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Old 12-26-19, 07:23 PM
  #98  
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Interesting thread wander. But for my .02 on biggest tech improvements in the last 30 years for road bikes. In order.
  1. Aero - frame, wheels, clothing. Biggest factor on speed, no doubt. I also very much enjoy the aesthetic of internal cable routing, I like minimizing clutter. fwiw, Taurus was doing this 90 years ago, but it was forgotten.
  2. Power meter. Makes for a boring race, but highly effective. Also makes for a more effective engine.
  3. 12-speed rear. No accommodating a distressing cadance.
  4. Carbon fiber. I debated this in my tiny brain as #3 or #4 . Fact of the matter, it lowered bike weight by at least a kg. Makes all the difference on a 3000m gain. While I own no carbon, I have ridden it and do not find any more or less "soul".
  5. Electronic shifting. Again, don't own it, but used it with great joy. Easy. Fast. Precise. Under any load.
  6. Disc brakes. I know #5 was a stretch. And I have never used them, so I really don't know if they rank anywhere. But there is potential as I do know brakes let you go deeper into a corner, which will win you an auto race every day of the week (my only experience).
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Old 12-26-19, 07:38 PM
  #99  
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Originally Posted by Darth Lefty View Post
What happened to the 1890s bike boom bikes?
Some of them ended up in the hands of local collectors, such as this Sylph Cycle made in 1892.
It was on temporary display at the local museum.







Steve in Peoria
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Old 12-26-19, 07:45 PM
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Originally Posted by wrk101 View Post
Well, there are plenty of modern steel frame bikes out there, particularly in the touring/gravel category. So new does not have to mean CF. The Marin Four Corners Elite is pretty intriguing.

If you are OK with mechanical disc brakes, then the Kona Wheelhouse with a Reynolds 853 frame looks pretty interesting too.

There is also a CHROME bikes direct, Reynolds 520 frame, hydraulic disk brakes, etc. Mercier Kilo GX R20. Since the chrome is just a $50 adder, I have to wonder about the quality of the chrome. But still, a modern steel chrome bike for $1049 is pretty incredible.

https://www.jensonusa.com/Marin-Four...iABEgI5EvD_BwE


https://www.jensonusa.com/Marin-Four...iABEgI5EvD_BwE
Thanks. Sounds like my exact cup of tea!
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