sacr

Came across some info that says the 7 speed freewheel is actually a bit wider, the 5 and 6 speed are the same size with different size spacers. Dont know about the spacers on the 7 speed.
Supposedly the 6 and 7 speed fit on the same size spiralled spline.

...and problems after the fix i did with swapping the direction of the rear cogs. About two days later, and the morning after I had just rewaxed the chain, I was riding and some clunking started coming from the drivetrain, I stopped the bike and found that pedalling backwards wasnt possible and it appeared to be a link of the chain was seizing up, sometimes they are a bit stiff after a wax. But it kept going, knew it wasnt good, but needed to get to work on time! Closer inspection of what was going on(with my good glasses on) revealed that the freewheel lock ring had come adrift and it was possibly getting caught up in the chain as well as the free wheel floating outwards on the spline......Id tightend it with what was reaonsable force with the tiny bottle opener tool(and believed this things would get tighter as you pedal anyway-wrong)

Bottom line when at home and pulled it all apart, the lock ring was scratched up but still ok, but when putting the freewheel/cassette back on the hub, there was some noticeable play, indicating that the helical splines effectively got grinded out a bit when it was loose. It may have already worn to that stage(but in theory there shouldnt be any wear there if it is firmly attached) and I hadn't noticed it, but given I was expecting some consequences of it working loose it was identified in this case. So rather than put it back on and perhaps it wear more to become very loose I fitted a spare I had purchased for such an occasion. The NOS freewheel fitted snugly, indicating that the wear was limited to the grooves on the freewheel rather than the hub,
So do up that dinky lock ring tight

madpogue 

The fact that it doesn't tighten as you ride is one of the things that distingush the Helicomatic (and, of course, the various various freehub/cassette systems of other makers) from a thread-on freewheel.

Good to hear, albeit surprising. I've pulled the freewheels of my Helico wheels only a couple times, but just from observation, the helical splines on the hub body impressed me as pretty soft. In any event, all's well that ends well.

sacr

Possibly there is some good design(or by accident) there if the metal of the freewheel splines is softer than the hub, then only one surface gets the wear(in theory), hence not wrecking both.
On further reflection, the clunking I felt from the driveline was possibly the freewheel slipping over a groove from the hub, as really the chain getting caught up in the floating lockring wasnt possible. I also noticed that I was having trouble getting it to go on to the bottom/smallest cog(during the "crisis"), shifter had reached endpoint and only just getting on to it.......indicating that the freewheel/cog set was moving outwards, yet when I applied max force standing on the cranks there was none of the random clunking. I will have a play around with the spare hub and freewheel set ive got(for academic purposes) to see how far out it needs to move to effectively slip.

oneclick 

It isn't.

The freewheel splines are steel.

The hub splines are aluminium.

The likelyhood of an aluminium part being harder than a mating steel part - even in France - is essentially zero.

I suspect that what is being noticed (if true) might be that the outermost portion of the hub splines got mangled when the freewheel was allowed to get loose, and the new freewheel just sits down a bit further into the undamaged part; feels tight - for now.

Trakhak

French pot metal bolts in my Stronglight track crankset were the bane of my existence in the 1960s.

sacr

Yes, I think you are correct about the metals used, they certainly feel like that, yet I have a NOS hub as well and the freewheel(that was on the bike when the lockring came ondone) sits just as loose on it as the hub on my wheel.

WGB 

I just purchased a Helicomatic hub and 6 speed freewheel (with tool) from @Paul J and am also receiving a gratis 5 speed freewheel from @Mr. Spadoni.

I obviously need direction towards a "proper", functional chain. Not just speed 6-7-8? But also a good brand to buy??

Any suggestions??

daverup 

I've got six speed freewheel on my helicomatic. I'm using a Sram pc870 chain. Shifts nicely, my shimano tricolor indexing shifters actually work pretty well.

dddd

I've tried sporting riding in the hills on my Peugeot PH501 with Helicomatic in recent years. I was always trying to improve on it's tendency to occasionally hit a "false neutral" or "chain skate" incidence, which once proved dangerous when a lady riding behind me on a climb almost crashed when I suddenly lost drive.

I tried 9s chain, and modern 8s chain, but I concluded that the original Sedisport chain installed back in 1984 actually worked the best, and was long-lasting.

I also tried modifying the cogs, adding diagonal bevels to two of the four corners of each tooth, Uniglide style, but this made only a slight improvement and I finally built up a similar-looking conventional rear wheel so I could use my favorite Uniglide 6s freewheels.

Back in the early 90's when I was riding a Trek 720, I rebuilt the rear wheel, replacing the Helicomatic hub with a nice Shimano 7s cassette hub.
I was able to re-use the Trek/Generic Stainless spokes, and even kept those same durable stainless spokes when I again rebuilt those wheels with Mod58 silver rims a few years later, after damaging the rear rim.

I once used a 700c Helicomatic wheelset on my Cannondale with indexed 7s Command shifters, and the indexing was right on yet the same "chain skating" problem was an annoyingly frequent-enough occurrence that I donated the entire bike to a bay-area charity.

sacr

If you can get the original type sedisport chain it will work without any skipping, sram830 is the next best option out of what Ive tried
Not all the sedis chains are the same and you need to see the look through profile to make sure you are getting the correct one, pic attached, bottom piece of chain is sedis, top is shimano

WGB 

SRAM it shall be. Thank you!

WGB 

Just received a Helicomatic hub and freewheel from Paul J and Mr. Spadoni is mailing me a 2nd freewheel.

My first question after reviewing the "Helicomatic Museum" website, is the website says that some hubs take 5/32 bearings and some take 1/4 bearings.

per website:

Sport ( 9 1/4" ball bearings on either side of the hub)
500 and 600 (13 5/32" ball bearings on either side of the hub)
700 Professional (This model had a finer threaded axle and different cones than the 500 and 600 models. Hubs were also better sealed. 13 5/32" ball bearings on either side of the hub)

Mine is shown below. I'd like to rebuild it (new bearings and grease) and I have 1/4 bearings but no 5/32nd.

Does anyone know which hub I have?
Prefer to know before taking it apart. No rush, it was -17c last night (or 1.4f so not working in garage for another week or so.




My second question relates to the horror stories about these hubs.

Am I wrong in thinking that the main issue with these hubs was the lock ring either not being properly tightened or just loosening on it's own?
I ran into an issue with cleat bolts coming out of my SPD cleats and then not being unable to unlock from a pedal at a stop and so I used blue thread locker to lock cleat bolts in place. Bolts still loosen with an Allen Key but don't move otherwise.

Would there be an issue with using blue thread locker - (not red thread locker) on the lock ring to prevent loosening?

bertinjim 

WGB-

Sedisport is the chain to use if you have one available. The horror stories typically are caused by the small rear hub bearings splitting apart and gouging the cones and the the bearing cups. The 5/32" are of poorer quality steel and, if the cones are the least overtightened, they will shatter. Replace them with 5/32", Grade 10 ball bearings and carefully adjust the cones. The lock ring can come loose so tighten well with the supplied tool and there should be no need for thread locker. I got the Grade 10 bearings for my Helicomatic rebuild at Bikefit in St. Catharines.

SJX426 

Interesting comment.
One of the reasons I like my Pinarello is the shifting is so good. Doesn't matter if the 740x drive train is on or the replacement Chorus. I can cross chan to my hearts content without significant rubbing on the FD. Just a small adjustment at it is good. The rear is still Shimano gearing but with Wheels Manufacturing spacers. I also moved from DT to Ergo's as part of the conversion. I try to avoid cross chaining but there are times when I don't look and just shift then find out I can't go down any more!
To keep on the subject of Helocomatic, I would have kept it on the Trek 610 if the cone on the DS hadn't been compromised.

P1000288 on Flickr

BTW: I have a block I would be willing to let go for a small sum.
Helicomatic 6V 13-21 on Flickr

WGB 

@bertinjim - I'll grab some bearings but, come to think of it - are those the same bearings I'd have bought for the headset of that Raleigh Super GP that went your way? Is so, I still have a few.
@SJX426 - I have the 6 speed and there is a 5 speed enroute to my US mailbox. Shipping to Canada is prohibitive for single items as an ex. the six speed to my house was $25 USD and the 5 speed to my NY mailbox was $8! Right now I have a wheelset, a freewheel and $300 worth of tools at that mailbox and no end to the Covid border closure in sight. I'll have to pass right now but, if it's not sold when the border reopens....

JohnDThompson 

The 700 model Helicomatic has chromed locknuts and ground and polished races; lower models are just black-oxide finished.

SJX426 

Let me know. It has been on the hook for nearly 10 years.

daverup 

I've got a couple of the Helicomatic hubs, one early model and later model like the ones in JohnDThompson pics.
What I've found is that the Trek 720 in about 1985 was equipped with an odd combo. The front end had a Maillard 700 hub and the rear was called the Helicomatic 700 Pro hub. This one had the chromed locknuts as John said, and also a special fine thread axle. Mine has 10 3/16 bearings a side. the cones and cups have labyrinth seals not found on the earlier hubs to keep the crud out. This combo may have been a result of the earlier version bearing failures. My cups and cones are still in nice condition.

sacr

I believe you have the 600 5/32, 13 a side hub, looks identical to what you have pictured, which I serviced and repacked the bearings. They looked fine after 35 years. Though I take on board that replacing them with better grade steel may be the wise thing to do

I have experienced the lock ring coming loose, believing a reasonable force with the tool provided was enough to stop it coming undone, perhaps it should have had a left hand thread?

Now give it all the force I can via hand with the tool, putting on Loctite might make it very hard to get off if you are in the middle of nowhere and only have the tiny bottle opener tool.