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Chained Revolution's Schwinn Paramount registry - anyone save it?

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Chained Revolution's Schwinn Paramount registry - anyone save it?

Old 02-13-20, 08:56 PM
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Originally Posted by St33lWh33ls View Post
Kurt, Hereís an example of what needs to be done to convert, I just took the first two lines. Commas denote columns, Newline denotes rows, copy and paste into Notepad and save the file as yourfilename.csv. Open in Excel you should have what you need.
I was trying to avoid that, but the deed is finally done now:



Now it's time to figure out how to conform this data to the new registry fields.

I'm also not 100% sure about the squared off and ovalized headlugs from the Wastyn era. I think I know what this is supposed to reference (the angle of the lug cut), but I'd want to see it to be sure.

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Old 02-13-20, 09:24 PM
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Originally Posted by cudak888 View Post
I'm also not 100% sure about the squared off and ovalized headlugs from the Wastyn era. I think I know what this is supposed to reference (the angle of the lug cut), but I'd want to see it to be sure.

-Kurt
Square, Round, Quad I think



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Old 02-13-20, 10:49 PM
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Chrome one is ovalised , White with Red headtube is squared, Blue and chrome is Neverx Siera Liger
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Old 02-14-20, 06:06 AM
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Originally Posted by St33lWh33ls View Post
Square, Round, Quad I think
Originally Posted by trainman999 View Post
Chrome one is ovalised , White with Red headtube is squared, Blue and chrome is Neverx Siera Liger
Just cleaned up the data so the fields for original finish, caps, lugs, and drops no longer need the legend to read. I also integrated this information into the database. As I thought, square/round referred to the feature cut of those lugs. Do we know who made said lugs?

Not having photos to reference with these bikes is a bit of a PITA though. A200 particularly gets me, as it lists lugs with an ovalized feature cut, but the description says the lower headlug doesn't have an integrated raceway. Given it's description, I almost want to say said bike is the one Waterford presents on their site as a '38, given that the upper headset race is integrated, and the lower is not:



But that's my one one issue with this particular registry - it has always opened up more questions than answers. It'll be a bit interesting to integrate it into the fairly detailed and rigid database I'm creating, which more or less attempts to nail down all the question marks, or at least present oddities in an understandable way.

FYI, that last lug is definitely Nervex Serie Legere 45/159, and not the quad-window lugs referred to in the registry. The only two bikes that are described as having "quad window" lugs are Ray Cass' prototypes from 1937.

P.S.: My personal all-time favorite for weirdness is this Wastyn-era Paramount that was posted on Facebook. The back end of this thing is Wastyn, but the main triangle was obviously rebuilt, with Nervex Professional lugs added in the process and later decals. I'm curious if this is P224, but the color description doesn't match up (again, another small irritation that I have with this particular registry). Claims to be '37/38, but that sounds like guesswork - especially since '37s were prototypes.




-Kurt
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Old 02-14-20, 07:05 AM
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Originally Posted by cudak888 View Post
Just cleaned up the data so the fields for original finish, caps, lugs, and drops no longer need the legend to read. I also integrated this information into the database. As I thought, square/round referred to the feature cut of those lugs. Do we know who made said lugs?

Not having photos to reference with these bikes is a bit of a PITA though. A200 particularly gets me, as it lists lugs with an ovalized feature cut, but the description says the lower headlug doesn't have an integrated raceway. Given it's description, I almost want to say said bike is the one Waterford presents on their site as a '38, given that the upper headset race is integrated, and the lower is not:



But that's my one one issue with this particular registry - it has always opened up more questions than answers. It'll be a bit interesting to integrate it into the fairly detailed and rigid database I'm creating, which more or less attempts to nail down all the question marks, or at least present oddities in an understandable way.

FYI, that last lug is definitely Nervex Serie Legere 45/159, and not the quad-window lugs referred to in the registry. The only two bikes that are described as having "quad window" lugs are Ray Cass' prototypes from 1937.

P.S.: My personal all-time favorite for weirdness is this Wastyn-era Paramount that was posted on Facebook. The back end of this thing is Wastyn, but the main triangle was obviously rebuilt, with Nervex Professional lugs added in the process and later decals. I'm curious if this is P224, but the color description doesn't match up (again, another small irritation that I have with this particular registry). Claims to be '37/38, but that sounds like guesswork - especially since '37s were prototypes.




-Kurt
Nice job getting the info sorted!

I have never seen a quad window, so Iím not sure what he was referring to, so a best guess. Wastyn bike traits are hard to nail down, and this seems to transfer to Paramount builds. Classic Cycle has a early Paramount with open stays, they claim that itís a Wastyn trait when in reality most builders of the day used open stays to show off the thin walled tubing. Of all the period builders, Wastyn built means variety. I can narrow down most builders of the day because their bikes were consistently similar in build, Wastyn not so much.

The red bike above belongs to a forum member, it was his dads bike and he did indeed crash the bike when he was young. There is a great story on the bike here in the forum somewhere.
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Old 02-14-20, 07:43 AM
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Originally Posted by St33lWh33ls View Post
Nice job getting the info sorted!

I have never seen a quad window, so I’m not sure what he was referring to, so a best guess. Wastyn bike traits are hard to nail down, and this seems to transfer to Paramount builds. Classic Cycle has a early Paramount with open stays, they claim that it’s a Wastyn trait when in reality most builders of the day used open stays to show off the thin walled tubing. Of all the period builders, Wastyn built means variety. I can narrow down most builders of the day because their bikes were consistently similar in build, Wastyn not so much.

The red bike above belongs to a forum member, it was his dads bike and he did indeed crash the bike when he was young. There is a great story on the bike here in the forum somewhere.
I couldn't find anything on the Ray Cass bikes, so I guess those entries will have to stay as they are. I've added a conditional field that shows up as a note on the individual entry for each bike:

The following entry was imported from Chained Revolution's now-defunct Schwinn Paramount registry to preserve known data. However, due to the age and limited data in said registry, the information below may be out of date.
To provide corrections, photos, or additional information, please contact us here.
That should encourage updates, though I'll probably request in the contact form that owners provide the info, preferably. Case in point, the red machine. Love to have the full story in the registry.

I'm not surprised the Wastyn builds can be all over the place. I hope that the fields I have at the moment will suffice. There will be new fields for size / factory color / current color as well now.

-Kurt
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Old 02-14-20, 10:53 AM
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Originally Posted by cudak888 View Post
P.S.: My personal all-time favorite for weirdness is this Wastyn-era Paramount that was posted on Facebook. The back end of this thing is Wastyn, but the main triangle was obviously rebuilt, with Nervex Professional lugs added in the process and later decals. I'm curious if this is P224, but the color description doesn't match up (again, another small irritation that I have with this particular registry). Claims to be '37/38, but that sounds like guesswork - especially since '37s were prototypes.




-Kurt
Originally Posted by cudak888 View Post
That should encourage updates, though I'll probably request in the contact form that owners provide the info, preferably. Case in point, the red machine. Love to have the full story in the registry.

-Kurt
The story on this bike is in the show your Paramount thread, it starts at post #72 here...

Show off your vintage Paramount

The Paramount is S/N A171
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Old 02-14-20, 11:03 AM
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I just read Ed.'s story. "Somebody's" crash resulted in probably the most interesting Paramount story I've heard to-date.

I ought to read that thread sometime, but it's too depressing to think of all the Paramounts I've ignored over the years because this registry couldn't be maintained in the manner I originally created it.

I hope Ed submits A171 to the registry - complete with the story - once the replacement site is up. In the meantime, I'm preparing the original Headbadge second-gen Registry for CSV import into Wordpress. Should be "fun" seeing as I can set the URL path to the images, but can't upload the images renamed accordingly. Might create a separate upload form just to manually upload the photos with automatic renaming.

-Kurt
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Old 02-14-20, 01:32 PM
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Kurt
On the spreadsheet i sent you there are links to pictures or info on a lot of the bikes, they are in the notes collum and 1 to the right of notes
TP in the source collum = Tam Pam , IG or blank = found info on interne,t likley has a link.
The white bike pictured ia A200
​​​​​​​
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Old 02-15-20, 08:02 AM
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Originally Posted by trainman999 View Post
Kurt
On the spreadsheet i sent you there are links to pictures or info on a lot of the bikes, they are in the notes collum and 1 to the right of notes
TP in the source collum = Tam Pam , IG or blank = found info on interne,t likley has a link.
The white bike pictured ia A200
I'll be going through that soon.

Last night was a bit of a step back and a step forward at the same time. I had to throw out a lot of edits (website, not Excel) I had made to the signup fields and go back to the initial way I had created each individual Paramount entry: Custom fields in each Paramount listing vs. creating custom terms for the Paramount Registry custom taxonomy. If that doesn't make sense, no worries. Wordpress speak.

It has been a a pain, but since I have taken the registry's creation in steps, I haven't had to do any major database rebuild. All the entries at the moment are dummy creations made through the front-end submission form (which also helps me get the kinks out of that).

The search function is now all dropdowns and doesn't have any square buttons to click for eras, but it takes up less space this way.

Also, the dropdowns are dropdown/checkbox combos: You can filter the registry by multiple options in a single category. In other words, If you want to find out what bikes made during Wastyn and Chicago eras have pointed stay ends, you can - and further filter by color and lugs, if you so desire.

-Kurt
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Old 02-16-20, 06:34 PM
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I have a few quandaries which perhaps the forum can weigh in on:

There are a few entries in the Chained Revolution registry that do not have listings for stay finishing, lugs, or dropouts - or a combination of all three.

Dropouts are also a bit of an issue, as P170 lists "Osgear-styled" dropouts, but I can only guess whether the field for dropouts should be "Osgear dropouts" or whether the dropouts on P170 are similar to Osgears. Then there are a few that list "forward dropouts" as early as 1947, but it is not until 1958 that Campagnolo 1010's are safe to establish.

This wouldn't be so much of a problem if it wasn't for the small detail that these fields ultimately create the dropdown list - which may cause a bike to be shoved in another field over an issue of semantics. Case in point, I mentioned P224 (a "1947+" bike) is listed as having "Nervex headlugs only, later decals." Nervex what? Professionals? The description seems to match a crash-damaged frame like A171, because the first entry with Nervex Serie Legere 45/159's begin in 1957...but is it safe to assume P224 has Nervex Pros in front?

How would you fellows approach this? I am almost willing to cut entries that do not have sufficient detail listed, rather than leave them in.

-Kurt
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Old 02-16-20, 07:30 PM
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Outlier Paramounts

Impressive amount of effort you are putting in, Kurt.

I'll send a pic of P224...it has Nervex Serie Legere headlugs and keyhole seat lug and bottom bracket lugs. The decals are not original Paramount, but are from the 1950s (maybe from a Traveler?), so it may be this one was repaired and repainted back then, and Schwinn decals from that era were used (correct restorations being a more modern obsession).

As for A200, I think the current owner has said the bottom headlug was repaired, thus the removal of the integrated race landing.

The P170 is an outlier....as listed, it has Osgear dropouts, and has a number of special braze-ons (shifter boss, cable stops and fender mounts that are different from Paramount Tourist fender mounts of the day; suggests that all these braze-ons maybe were a later addition/customization).

(I can't seem to be able to upload photos here, so I will send them to your e.mail address)
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Old 02-16-20, 07:52 PM
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Originally Posted by ccdc.1 View Post
Impressive amount of effort you are putting in, Kurt.

I'll send a pic of P224...it has Nervex Serie Legere headlugs and keyhole seat lug and bottom bracket lugs. The decals are not original Paramount, but are from the 1950s (maybe from a Traveler?), so it may be this one was repaired and repainted back then, and Schwinn decals from that era were used (correct restorations being a more modern obsession).

As for A200, I think the current owner has said the bottom headlug was repaired, thus the removal of the integrated race landing.

The P170 is an outlier....as listed, it has Osgear dropouts, and has a number of special braze-ons (shifter boss, cable stops and fender mounts that are different from Paramount Tourist fender mounts of the day; suggests that all these braze-ons maybe were a later addition/customization).
I made my work doubly-difficult tonight by taking the original second-gen Registry data and splitting off the crankset as its own data point. While the individual bikes will list components, I don't think I'm making it a searchable field though - too many non-original combos; not really a good field for searchable reference.

For the benefit of anyone else reading, I've taken the liberty of attaching those photos you sent - after the pictures are my comments:











Looks like P224 is another front-end crash repair. Interesting to see a Paramount with the noodle logos.

P170's dropouts...are these accepted as Osgear dropouts, or similar to Osgear? From what I've seen, the point of an Osgear was that it was a combined vertical and horizontal dropout. These look like something along those lines, but not entirely.

Those slotted lugs are something...but the one thing that has me is that's tri-window, not quad window. More questions than answers...again.

Incidentally, finally looked at your 2020 spreadsheet as well. Interesting spread of bikes that are not publicly accounted for yet...should be interesting to see if they all file in. Also gives me a few extra options to consider in the dropdowns. Still haven't found the links in the sheet though.

I'm tempted to re-do my work off of your list though. It's more accurate, most of the owner's names aren't listed and a fair amount is based off that registry. What's there is fact; simple as that.

-Kurt
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Old 02-16-20, 07:59 PM
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On the 'forward geared' denotation in the Chained Revolution list, it is a bit of a misnomer. There are a good number of Paramounts in the 1950s that use an unidentified plate-style forward-facing rear dropout, usually with a fender mounting ear on the back edge (even though such bikes have no fender provisions on the fork)....I think they may have been the same dropouts as were used on the Schwinn Town and Country Tandems. But they were not generally used for derailleur-equipped bikes....these were used before the Campagnolo GS dropouts came into use in the mid-late 50s (the earliest one I have seen with Campy dropouts is #724 ).

My own theory on the early forward-facing plate dropouts is they were used on bikes intended to be ridden on the road (versus true track bikes). These would have still been single-speed, either fixed or single freewheel club bikes, not Tourist models. If you think about it, wheel removal for a tire repair on the road is a bit of a PITA with rear-facing track ends. I could be wrong, but the ones I have pictures of are fitted out just like the ones with track ends.
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Old 02-16-20, 08:43 PM
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Can you leave the fields blank or a U for unknown?

For droup outs can you just use TE= Track ends and FG +forward gear? There are at least four or five types of FG

1: A plate, bike 563

2: Osgear styled is probably a cyclo, P170 and P172

3: xxarog ??? bike 689 Scwhinn Paramount

4: Simplex and

5: Campagmolo

Bike 724 has Campagnolo road droup outs. 913 had shipping documents at 6-1958 they are on Paramounts before 1958. 724 is probably a 55 or 56



I know the person that owns P224 will msg him he will probably be a person that adds his bikes to the registry, has lots.

Neverx Sera Liger start prior to bike 600 goes past 700 then you have a mixture on Sl and Pro. Bike 833 has Neverx Pro head lugs and Seria Leger seat and BB
You have the 2 spread sheets confused mine has links to a lot of the bikes, Michaels does not, there are bikes on his that are not on mine.
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Old 02-17-20, 02:10 PM
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Originally Posted by cudak888 View Post
I have a few quandaries which perhaps the forum can weigh in on:

There are a few entries in the Chained Revolution registry that do not have listings for stay finishing, lugs, or dropouts - or a combination of all three.

Dropouts are also a bit of an issue, as P170 lists "Osgear-styled" dropouts, but I can only guess whether the field for dropouts should be "Osgear dropouts" or whether the dropouts on P170 are similar to Osgears. Then there are a few that list "forward dropouts" as early as 1947, but it is not until 1958 that Campagnolo 1010's are safe to establish.

This wouldn't be so much of a problem if it wasn't for the small detail that these fields ultimately create the dropdown list - which may cause a bike to be shoved in another field over an issue of semantics. Case in point, I mentioned P224 (a "1947+" bike) is listed as having "Nervex headlugs only, later decals." Nervex what? Professionals? The description seems to match a crash-damaged frame like A171, because the first entry with Nervex Serie Legere 45/159's begin in 1957...but is it safe to assume P224 has Nervex Pros in front?

How would you fellows approach this? I am almost willing to cut entries that do not have sufficient detail listed, rather than leave them in.

-Kurt
Kurt, Are you going to integrate all the Paramounts into your db? For missing info I would also have a “see description” drop down and make note in that field as it will be the exception not the rule.

The best feature of the chained revolution site was the serial numbers of bikes with known provenance because it allowed you to approximate the date of other frames-bicycles.

Last edited by St33lWh33ls; 02-17-20 at 02:14 PM. Reason: More info
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Old 02-17-20, 09:38 PM
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Originally Posted by ccdc.1 View Post
On the 'forward geared' denotation in the Chained Revolution list, it is a bit of a misnomer. There are a good number of Paramounts in the 1950s that use an unidentified plate-style forward-facing rear dropout, usually with a fender mounting ear on the back edge (even though such bikes have no fender provisions on the fork)....I think they may have been the same dropouts as were used on the Schwinn Town and Country Tandems. But they were not generally used for derailleur-equipped bikes....these were used before the Campagnolo GS dropouts came into use in the mid-late 50s (the earliest one I have seen with Campy dropouts is #724 ).

My own theory on the early forward-facing plate dropouts is they were used on bikes intended to be ridden on the road (versus true track bikes). These would have still been single-speed, either fixed or single freewheel club bikes, not Tourist models. If you think about it, wheel removal for a tire repair on the road is a bit of a PITA with rear-facing track ends. I could be wrong, but the ones I have pictures of are fitted out just like the ones with track ends.
Are you referring to the type of dropout that shows up on the later Wastyn Schwinn Paramount tourists (e.g., #710 )? If so, it's definitely some sort of variant of the Schwinn in-house dropout.

Rear facing track-style ends seemed to be the norm for just about everything built in the US - coaster brake bikes included - until the 1940's. It would stand to reason that Schwinn kept rear facing track ends on the Paramounts until the convenience of drops became apparent for road use or 3-speeds.

I don't have to think about it - I've serviced way too many retired dockless bikes now thanks to the Bike Share Museum, and they all have rear facing ends with tensioners. Great for long-term reliability. A pain in the butt in every other regard, especially with fenders.

Originally Posted by trainman999 View Post
Can you leave the fields blank or a U for unknown?

For droup outs can you just use TE= Track ends and FG +forward gear? There are at least four or five types of FG

1: A plate, bike 563

2: Osgear styled is probably a cyclo, P170 and P172

3: xxarog ??? bike 689 Scwhinn Paramount

4: Simplex and

5: Campagmolo

Bike 724 has Campagnolo road droup outs. 913 had shipping documents at 6-1958 they are on Paramounts before 1958. 724 is probably a 55 or 56

I know the person that owns P224 will msg him he will probably be a person that adds his bikes to the registry, has lots.

Neverx Sera Liger start prior to bike 600 goes past 700 then you have a mixture on Sl and Pro. Bike 833 has Neverx Pro head lugs and Seria Leger seat and BB
You have the 2 spread sheets confused mine has links to a lot of the bikes, Michaels does not, there are bikes on his that are not on mine.
No, I'd rather be more specific. The submission form will require users to select their dropouts/track ends from a dropdown menu. The options in that menu are indexed by the website and used to create the other dropdown list - the one you'll be able to use to filter the registry - above the main registry itself.

Thing is, if someone used a different definition for a given dropout (or any specific detail, for that matter), I could have three definitions for a similar dropout. It'd make the database a mess, which is why I'm trying to avoid those "other" categories as much as possible - at least for known variants. I can, of course, adjust a specific single entry, but that'd be for something like the Osgear-compatible drops.

I think I'm a bit clearer now on the Wastyn era dropout possibilities though. I'd appreciate peer input on these options:
  • Wastyn track ends
  • Schwinn stamped dropouts
  • Osgear-compatible
  • Simplex droputs
  • Campagnolo 1010
  • Campagnolo track ends (second-gen)
I do have the sheets confused, apparently. When did you send yours?

Originally Posted by St33lWh33ls View Post
Kurt, Are you going to integrate all the Paramounts into your db? For missing info I would also have a “see description” drop down and make note in that field as it will be the exception not the rule.

The best feature of the chained revolution site was the serial numbers of bikes with known provenance because it allowed you to approximate the date of other frames-bicycles.
All of them; even the MTBs and Series bikes now. However, data on all 1985+ Waterford models will be relegated to model, size, color, tubing (if applicable), a bio, up to 5 pictures, and a scan of a provenance report, if the owner chooses. Not so many oddballs then, though I've made provisions for the 50th Anniversary bikes and any Wheaties Team bikes.

ccdc.1's database is a pretty darn good update of Tam Pham's - including much better info on dates and many more gaps filled. I may have to add a "date approximated" field though that will add a "+" to the end of the given date.

P.S.: The '81-83 Superiors are getting split off into their own list.

-Kurt
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Old 02-18-20, 05:38 AM
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Sent it 1-19 2020. Sent you an updated copy to yor headbadge email
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Old 02-18-20, 06:04 AM
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Originally Posted by trainman999 View Post
Sent it 1-19 2020. Sent you an updated copy to yor headbadge email
Got it.

Question - if the link data were removed, do you have an objection if I were to use data from the list in forming the updated registry? It looks as if both you and Michael have been expanding on the same list with similar results in terms of the additional bikes that have shown up, but we could expand data with sizes, repaint Y/N, and stay ends if we merged the two.

Let me know if you'd both like to confer with me via email.

-Kurt
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Old 02-18-20, 03:08 PM
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I dont have an objection as Google found the info on the internet . Confer by email good with me
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