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Bearing Race Question

Old 01-15-20, 09:47 AM
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Bearing Race Question

Would an auto parts store (we have a local shop from vintage days) have a line on this bearing race? When I disassembled the rear coaster brake hub on this 1898 Glenwood I discovered why there was a binding-up feel to it. This was a casualty of riding without lube. Here is a pic:


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Old 01-15-20, 10:47 AM
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Well, I'll offer an opinion for what it is worth. The piece in your hand looks like a bearing cage, not a race. What does the race look like? And, no way an auto shop has a bicycle bearing cage or race. if that is indeed the cage, why not clean up and put in new bearings of the correct size. If the race is shot, then life is probably more difficult. Good luck.
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Old 01-15-20, 11:14 AM
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Maybe you can run them loose?
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Old 01-15-20, 11:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Steelman54 View Post
Well, I'll offer an opinion for what it is worth. The piece in your hand looks like a bearing cage, not a race. What does the race look like? And, no way an auto shop has a bicycle bearing cage or race. if that is indeed the cage, why not clean up and put in new bearings of the correct size. If the race is shot, then life is probably more difficult. Good luck.
The trip to the auto store was to see if they had anything close or send me in the right direction. They didn’t care what it was called. The circular metal apparatus is broken. I’ll grease it up and go with loose bearings and see what happens. Thank you.
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Old 01-15-20, 12:09 PM
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loose ball might be plus one ball based on the spacing of the cage.

check the bearing race (pick would help) if it is toast a machinist could recreate
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Old 01-15-20, 01:00 PM
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Since some of the retaining tabs are still intact for measurement, wouldn't something like this be a good candidate for 3D printing? Just spitballing, as I know very little about the process of actually engaging someone to have something like this manufactured.
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Old 01-15-20, 01:17 PM
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Originally Posted by squirtdad View Post
loose ball might be plus one ball based on the spacing of the cage.

check the bearing race (pick would help) if it is toast a machinist could recreate
Took a quick trip to the hardware store to grab a few extra bearings. Got home, greased it up with a total of 7+2, mocked it up and it spins like silky smooth. Feels like 1977. Thanks for the tip.
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Old 01-15-20, 02:10 PM
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Originally Posted by OldsCOOL View Post
Took a quick trip to the hardware store to grab a few extra bearings. Got home, greased it up with a total of 7+2, mocked it up and it spins like silky smooth. Feels like 1977. Thanks for the tip.
Going to chime in to say that I often use heavy automotive bearing grease to sustain a compromised bearing situation where spindle, cup, cone, etc are pitted and may not be practical to find or spend for new.

New balls, s-can the cage, set them up loose, run for awhile, recheck and adjust as necessary.

I know the drag is substantial in terms of perfect, but unless you're Eddy Merckx it won't matter very much.
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Old 01-15-20, 03:11 PM
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Originally Posted by OldsCOOL View Post
Would an auto parts store (we have a local shop from vintage days) have a line on this bearing race? When I disassembled the rear coaster brake hub on this 1898 Glenwood I discovered why there was a binding-up feel to it. This was a casualty of riding without lube. Here is a pic:


Throw the cage and fit all balls grade 25. loose balls work fine, they can take more load than equivalent cage.
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Old 01-15-20, 04:18 PM
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Originally Posted by PeterLYoung View Post
Throw the cage and fit all balls grade 25. loose balls work fine, they can take more load than equivalent cage.
Done deal.
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Old 01-15-20, 05:58 PM
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FWIW (you already solved the issue) they are out there.
Generally order by # of balls X ball diameter.
Just one source
https://wheelsmfg.com/products/beari...retainers.html
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Old 01-15-20, 06:01 PM
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Absolutely no way that was an original bearing. Someone else's best guess/approximation. In the Anglo-American world in 1898 ball bearings were still turned on lathes. Accuracy at best was plus or minus 0.001" and surface finish about the same. You would not want original. Someone else figured it out and so can you.
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Old 01-15-20, 06:54 PM
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Originally Posted by merziac View Post
Going to chime in to say that I often use heavy automotive bearing grease to sustain a compromised bearing situation where spindle, cup, cone, etc are pitted and may not be practical to find or spend for new.

New balls, s-can the cage, set them up loose, run for awhile, recheck and adjust as necessary.

I know the drag is substantial in terms of perfect, but unless you're Eddy Merckx it won't matter very much.
Being a 120yr old wooden rimmed skip chain bike, no big rides or Strava segment challenges with it. I like and agree with your tip on using heavy grease as a tolerator on old bearings.
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Old 01-15-20, 06:56 PM
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Originally Posted by 63rickert View Post
Absolutely no way that was an original bearing. Someone else's best guess/approximation. In the Anglo-American world in 1898 ball bearings were still turned on lathes. Accuracy at best was plus or minus 0.001" and surface finish about the same. You would not want original. Someone else figured it out and so can you.
So what is your guess on the age of that bearing (with retainer)?
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Old 01-15-20, 07:02 PM
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Originally Posted by OldsCOOL View Post
So what is your guess on the age of that bearing (with retainer)?
It looks like something we would have gotten from Merry Sales Company in the early seventies (and probably for a couple decades before that.) They came in a wide range of sizes.
Brent

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Old 01-15-20, 07:24 PM
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I wish I had a good answer. Have tried to best of ability and thrown some time at the question and not come up with good answers. I have found that as late as 1900 cycling companies were making capex investment in lathes for bearing manufacture. So I will say your bearing is 20th century and can't do better.

Bicycles were the killer app that made bearings a thing. Before bicycles arrived it was done with bushings or with journals run in Babbitt metal. Or you just didn't design it. When bearings were made it was an extremely special one-off. Then bicycles created a demand. Bikes wanted little bearings, not the specials for locomotives. Everyone was working on a way to supply bikes with bearings and no one had anything better than cutting them. Might be done on an automatic screw lathe but that was still basically one at a time, slow and expensive. And crude. Tech was changing practically daily in 1890s. Other factor in play was after the huge boom in 1892-3 bikes did not completely remain fashionable. They were expensive as all heck and the industry needed fashionable gentlemen to be spending cash. Those guys stop spending when it stops being cool. Then automobiles happened.

The real kicker is that in Germany they were grinding bearings in bulk as early as 1879. They had been making marbles since early eighteenth century and figured out same process worked with steel just as with marble or agate. But outside of Germany no one knew. One of the reason German 'oldtimers' are used and ridden a lot more than American bikes of similar vintage is they always had good bearings. The rough lathed bearings beat the bikes to death.
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Old 01-15-20, 08:00 PM
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Originally Posted by 63rickert View Post
Absolutely no way that was an original bearing. Someone else's best guess/approximation. In the Anglo-American world in 1898 ball bearings were still turned on lathes. Accuracy at best was plus or minus 0.001" and surface finish about the same. You would not want original. Someone else figured it out and so can you.
Not disputing this but some places were producing beyond a lathe.
See pages 34-38.
https://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/c...9810009866.pdf
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Old 01-15-20, 09:09 PM
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Ryp,
If you could measure the OD of the cage and use a micrometer to get the diameter of the balls I'll look in my parts stock and see if any match your needs. That is if you want to say with a caged bearing set. My pleasure to help you out sir!

The add one ball and grease well should work of the races are still in good condition, also. I have a good stock of high quality, loose Campagnolo balls on hand, you are welcome to some if you need. Just give me a shout.

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Old 01-15-20, 09:58 PM
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Originally Posted by qcpmsame View Post
Ryp,
If you could measure the OD of the cage and use a micrometer to get the diameter of the balls I'll look in my parts stock and see if any match your needs. That is if you want to say with a caged bearing set. My pleasure to help you out sir!

The add one ball and grease well should work of the races are still in good condition, also. I have a good stock of high quality, loose Campagnolo balls on hand, you are welcome to some if you need. Just give me a shout.

Bill
Thank you Bill, you are a blessing of encouragement to me and so many others here. Right now, I will stay with the loose bearings. I have new ones and should do well. The race wasnít damaged, fortunately.
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Old 01-15-20, 10:06 PM
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Originally Posted by 63rickert View Post
I wish I had a good answer. Have tried to best of ability and thrown some time at the question and not come up with good answers. I have found that as late as 1900 cycling companies were making capex investment in lathes for bearing manufacture. So I will say your bearing is 20th century and can't do better.

Bicycles were the killer app that made bearings a thing. Before bicycles arrived it was done with bushings or with journals run in Babbitt metal. Or you just didn't design it. When bearings were made it was an extremely special one-off. Then bicycles created a demand. Bikes wanted little bearings, not the specials for locomotives. Everyone was working on a way to supply bikes with bearings and no one had anything better than cutting them. Might be done on an automatic screw lathe but that was still basically one at a time, slow and expensive. And crude. Tech was changing practically daily in 1890s. Other factor in play was after the huge boom in 1892-3 bikes did not completely remain fashionable. They were expensive as all heck and the industry needed fashionable gentlemen to be spending cash. Those guys stop spending when it stops being cool. Then automobiles happened.

The real kicker is that in Germany they were grinding bearings in bulk as early as 1879. They had been making marbles since early eighteenth century and figured out same process worked with steel just as with marble or agate. But outside of Germany no one knew. One of the reason German 'oldtimers' are used and ridden a lot more than American bikes of similar vintage is they always had good bearings. The rough lathed bearings beat the bikes to death.
Interesting topic. Thank you for taking time to help me and others along. I also, was digging and searching. My rear hub is a patent pend 1907 Atherton coaster brake hub that was evidently added as an aftermarket safety upgrade to the bike.

And yes, we used to play marbles with locomotive ball bearings when we were kids.
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Old 01-16-20, 01:14 AM
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Originally Posted by OldsCOOL View Post
The trip to the auto store was to see if they had anything close or send me in the right direction. They didnít care what it was called. The circular metal apparatus is broken. Iíll grease it up and go with loose bearings and see what happens. Thank you.
You absolutely can not toss the cage for the balls and just add the balls alone. You'll need at least one or more ball to make the spacing uniform. I can't tell from the photo but the balls looked scarred and if that's so, check the race and cone for scarring. That will determine your next step. In most cases I'd try to buy a new cage style bearing replacement or half a dozen balls to add to the converted loose ball style bearing. I use marine grease or boat trailer grease.
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Old 01-16-20, 01:58 AM
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Originally Posted by dedhed View Post
Not disputing this but some places were producing beyond a lathe.
See pages 34-38.
https://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/c...9810009866.pdf
That's as good as I've found. It's history by series of anecdotes. Most of that I've come across before in other forms. Yes, they processed them after they came off the lathe. Sometimes just guys sitting at a bench filing off the pips. Most interesting in that text is after p.38, lots of basic work being done later than I'd have guessed, presented fairly comprehensively.

On a 1/4" ball accuracy to 0.001" is a grade 4000 bearing. That source says someone (?) got down to half that error in 1890s. OK. Grade 4000 or grade 2000 is a visibly rough ball, oldscool has shiny bearings.

Also note that as late as 1980s Roger Piel was producing and Sean Kelly was racing pedals with bushings instead of bearings. Where there's a will there's a way.
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Old 01-16-20, 03:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Cycle Tourist View Post
You absolutely can not toss the cage for the balls and just add the balls alone. You'll need at least one or more ball to make the spacing uniform. I can't tell from the photo but the balls looked scarred and if that's so, check the race and cone for scarring. That will determine your next step. In most cases I'd try to buy a new cage style bearing replacement or half a dozen balls to add to the converted loose ball style bearing. I use marine grease or boat trailer grease.
I think you are over complicating things. As others have said loose balls and heavy grease = Bobs your Uncle.
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Old 01-16-20, 08:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Cycle Tourist View Post
You absolutely can not toss the cage for the balls and just add the balls alone. You'll need at least one or more ball to make the spacing uniform. I can't tell from the photo but the balls looked scarred and if that's so, check the race and cone for scarring. That will determine your next step. In most cases I'd try to buy a new cage style bearing replacement or half a dozen balls to add to the converted loose ball style bearing. I use marine grease or boat trailer grease.
Yes, I got that part. Just to catch you (and others) up, this is not for my Cannondale Criterium Series.

This is the subject bike:


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Old 01-16-20, 10:34 AM
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Pitch the cage and install a set of new ball bearings, without a cage. The cage just makes it easier (cheaper) to install bearing. This goes for head set and wheel hub bearings also...

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