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Wheel/hub question

Old 01-27-20, 04:42 PM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by cyccommute View Post
They look like loose bearing cup and cone hubs. They even look like they are OEM (original equipment manufacturer) since they have the original retention system. The red lines in the picture below point to the cone and lock nut.

Untitled by Stuart Black, on Flickr

The lock nut will need a 17mm wrench to adjust it and the cones will likely need a 13mm cone wrench.

On a side note, that wheel retention system is far superior to the other wheel retention systems we are stuck with now.
Those are not the original wheels to the 1987, lol.

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Old 01-27-20, 05:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Mr. 66 View Post
Those are not the original wheels to the 1987, lol.
The bike apparently (according to the catalog) came with black anodized Rigida rims laced to a Shimano 600EX small flange, sealed bearing hub. So the rims are definitely not OEM, and I can't see any sign of engraving on the hubs, which seems to be there with all the examples of Shimano EX hubs I've been able to find. So my wheels are more or less period correct, but probably not OEM.

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Old 01-28-20, 08:50 AM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by Roypercy View Post
The bike apparently (according to the catalog) came with black anodized Rigida rims laced to a Shimano 600EX small flange, sealed bearing hub. So the rims are definitely not OEM, and I can't see any sign of engraving on the hubs, which seems to be there with all the examples of Shimano EX hubs I've been able to find. So my wheels are more or less period correct, but probably not OEM.
Bicycle catalogs often contain a statement along the lines of "Specifications are subject to change without notice." What is shown is a catalog isn't always what makes it to the showroom. The inclusion if the retention system says to me that the wheels are likely OEM. Most people wouldn't go through the hassle of installing them on a new set of wheels. While the retention system is superior to other systems, most people don't want the retentions system at all. I doubt that even replacement wheels from Schwinn would have come with the retention system.

Even if the wheels aren't OEM they are wheels of the period.

Originally Posted by Mr. 66 View Post
Those are not the original wheels to the 1987, lol.
Based upon what specifically? As I said above, the retention system is correct to the Schwinn of that age and, again as I said above, most people wouldn't have added them to the wheels if they replaced them.
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Old 01-28-20, 09:14 AM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by cyccommute View Post
Bicycle catalogs often contain a statement along the lines of "Specifications are subject to change without notice." What is shown is a catalog isn't always what makes it to the showroom. The inclusion if the retention system says to me that the wheels are likely OEM. Most people wouldn't go through the hassle of installing them on a new set of wheels. While the retention system is superior to other systems, most people don't want the retentions system at all. I doubt that even replacement wheels from Schwinn would have come with the retention system.

Even if the wheels are OEM they are wheels of the period.



Based upon what specifically? As I said above, the retention system is correct to the Schwinn of that age and, again as I said above, most people wouldn't have added them to the wheels if they replaced them.
Those retainers are transferable. Lol
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Old 01-28-20, 09:35 AM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by Mr. 66 View Post
Those retainers are transferable. Lol
Yes, but most people don't transfer them, especially if they are upgrading the wheels. Lawyer lips and retention devices are generally looked upon with scorn by someone who would upgrade the wheels.

But you still haven't answered the question of how you know those can't be OEM wheels.
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Old 01-28-20, 09:46 AM
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Originally Posted by cyccommute View Post
Yes, but most people don't transfer them, especially if they are upgrading the wheels. Lawyer lips and retention devices are generally looked upon with scorn by someone who would upgrade the wheels.

But you still haven't answered the question of how you know those can't be OEM wheels.
Those wheels are not an upgrade from Shimano 600 set that were OEM. Lol
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Old 01-28-20, 11:06 AM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by Mr. 66 View Post
Those wheels are not an upgrade from Shimano 600 set that were OEM. Lol
What part of "Specifications are subject to change without notice" do you not understand? They could very easily be off-spec from the catalog due to changes in manufacturing. They are certainly from that era.
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Old 01-28-20, 12:09 PM
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I'll just wait over here while you guys hash this out...

I'm slammed at work for the next few days, but when I have a minute I'll pull the wheel and take some better pics of the hub, maybe together we can determine what it is and whether it's worth overhauling or an upgrade.

To my original question, does anybody have any thoughts about the Wolber rim?
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Old 01-28-20, 01:08 PM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by Roypercy View Post
I'll just wait over here while you guys hash this out...

I'm slammed at work for the next few days, but when I have a minute I'll pull the wheel and take some better pics of the hub, maybe together we can determine what it is and whether it's worth overhauling or an upgrade.

To my original question, does anybody have any thoughts about the Wolber rim?
Yes, they're good quality single wall rims that were popular back then, more popular in the 70s I think. Look it up on velobase and note the comments, also under the former name "Super Champion". If the rims are not damaged they should provide many years of happy cycling. The only reason to replace them on a bike like that would be if you wanted to convert to 700c, assuming that the rims you have are 27". Don't know if you mentioned the size or not, so I'm guessing 27".

Curious, was Schwinn known to use Wolber Super Champion rims on those bicycles?

Super Champion was a French rim maker bought out by Wolber in 79. Sometime later, rim manufacturing was bought by Mavic, but I don't know exactly when.
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Old 01-28-20, 03:17 PM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by cyccommute View Post
What part of "Specifications are subject to change without notice" do you not understand? They could very easily be off-spec from the catalog due to changes in manufacturing. They are certainly from that era.
Yep "off-spec" and not OEM. Swapped in. From the era? How do you know they are not Chinese fake of the era? From the thousands and thousands plus thousands again of possible manufacturers. Lol
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Old 01-28-20, 03:35 PM
  #36  
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Looks like a standard issue Asian cup & cone hub from BITD; as said, Wolber was a well-reputed brand of quality rims. Maybe the wheels are transplants from another Schwinn contemporary with this one. Maybe someone swapped the retainer gizmos (and the locknuts, since that's what they ride on) over from aonther wheel. Whatevah. Just open it up, clean it and re-pack with your favorite flavor of high quality bearing grease, and it will probably serve you dutifullly as long as you need.

Did you see any other wording on that seal, other than "Japan"?
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Old 01-29-20, 08:15 AM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by Roypercy View Post
I'll just wait over here while you guys hash this out...

I'm slammed at work for the next few days, but when I have a minute I'll pull the wheel and take some better pics of the hub, maybe together we can determine what it is and whether it's worth overhauling or an upgrade.

To my original question, does anybody have any thoughts about the Wolber rim?
I wouldn't necessarily replace them. They just need a rather minor adjustment. As long as the sidewalls of the rim are straight, use them. If rims wear out, consider replacement but not until then.

Originally Posted by desconhecido View Post
Yes, they're good quality single wall rims that were popular back then, more popular in the 70s I think. Look it up on velobase and note the comments, also under the former name "Super Champion". If the rims are not damaged they should provide many years of happy cycling. The only reason to replace them on a bike like that would be if you wanted to convert to 700c, assuming that the rims you have are 27". Don't know if you mentioned the size or not, so I'm guessing 27".

Curious, was Schwinn known to use Wolber Super Champion rims on those bicycles?

Super Champion was a French rim maker bought out by Wolber in 79. Sometime later, rim manufacturing was bought by Mavic, but I don't know exactly when.
I agree with a couple of caveats. There are more then one Super Champion models. Some are single wall and some double. I, like you, suspect these are single wall. But you are right that they will provide years of service. The catalog does say that it has 700C wheels, however.
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Old 01-29-20, 08:34 AM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by cyccommute View Post
I wouldn't necessarily replace them. They just need a rather minor adjustment. As long as the sidewalls of the rim are straight, use them. If rims wear out, consider replacement but not until then.



I agree with a couple of caveats. There are more then one Super Champion models. Some are single wall and some double. I, like you, suspect these are single wall. But you are right that they will provide years of service. The catalog does say that it has 700C wheels, however.
Definately not OEM. Lol
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Old 01-29-20, 08:52 AM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by cyccommute View Post
I agree with a couple of caveats. There are more then one Super Champion models. Some are single wall and some double. I, like you, suspect these are single wall. But you are right that they will provide years of service. The catalog does say that it has 700C wheels, however.
Yeah, but those are probably not original to the bike and the catalog is ony a suggestion anyways.

Wolber labels might indicate the model: 58 is sw and 81 (aka "Gentleman") is dw.
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Old 01-29-20, 10:50 AM
  #40  
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Wheel retainers... So That's what those steel pieces between the cones and locknuts are? What, do they bolt to the inside of the fork? Sounds like a CPSC mandated fuhrer directive to me.
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Old 01-29-20, 11:06 AM
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Originally Posted by cadillacmike68 View Post
Wheel retainers... So That's what those steel pieces between the cones and locknuts are? What, do they bolt to the inside of the fork? Sounds like a CPSC mandated fuhrer directive to me.
There is a spring and pin in the fork that the retainers snap onto. The fork tips are smooth like a fork tip should be for a quick release. In other words, there is no twisting of the quick release nut which makes the quick release...well...quick. The nice thing about the Schwinn ones is that they can be removed easily so that you don't have to fiddle with the quick release.

As for the CPSC, they have never mandated lawyer lips and are, in fact, rather against them. Secondary wheel retention isn't required by the CPSC with the exception of bolted hubs. Details here. Lawyer lips have been added by manufacturers as a CYA due to some flawed rulings on wheel retention. Some of that history as well as the reason why they are unnecessary can be found here.
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Old 01-29-20, 11:16 AM
  #42  
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I've seen one other version of the secondary retention -- some Univegas have a little pivoting spring-loaded stainless steel latch threaded onto the fender mount (or a separate brazed on eyelet). It just swings open when you install the wheel, but requires releasing/unlatching it to remove the wheel, after opening the QR. I've read epithets from enthusiats about all forms of secondary retention, but of all of them, the Schwinn system seems to work the best, for the reason referenced above.
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Old 01-29-20, 11:18 AM
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Just another odd wrinkle on the "OEM or non-OEM" debate - according to the catalogs anyway, these very rims (Wolber 58) were standard equipment in '86, '87 and '88 on the Voyageur, which at the time was a Tenax-framed, rather lightweight (24 lbs) touring model, with Sansin sealed hubs some years, maillard sealed hubs other years. Except - the Wolbers on the Voyageur were 27" rims, and mine are 700c. In fact Wolbers show up as OEM in the catalogs a lot during the mid-80s, but only in 27" size.

I'll pull the wheel this weekend and try to determine the maker of the hub. Interesting mystery!

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Old 01-29-20, 11:24 AM
  #44  
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The CPSC ruined the aesthetics of Campy parts in 1978 and they are still doing so...
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Old 01-29-20, 11:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Roypercy View Post
Just another odd wrinkle on the "OEM or non-OEM" debate - according to the catalogs anyway, these very rims (Wolber 58) were standard equipment in '86, '87 and '88 on the Voyageur, which at the time was a Tenax-framed, rather lightweight (24 lbs) touring model, with Sansin sealed hubs some years, maillard sealed hubs other years. Except - the Wolbers on the Voyageur were 27" rims, and mine are 700c. In fact Wolbers show up as OEM in the catalogs a lot during the mid-80s, but only in 27" size.

I'll pull the wheel this weekend and try to determine the maker of the hub. Interesting mystery!
Dock guy to manager: "Hey, that order of Wolbers for the Voyageur build came in -- the knuckleheads sent us a bunch of 700s!"
Manager to Dock Guy: "D'OH, that'll take forever to iron out. Just send 'em along with the Sansin hubs over to the Super Sport line; they'll know what to do with 'em...."
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Old 01-29-20, 01:35 PM
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Originally Posted by madpogue View Post
Dock guy to manager: "Hey, that order of Wolbers for the Voyageur build came in -- the knuckleheads sent us a bunch of 700s!"
Manager to Dock Guy: "D'OH, that'll take forever to iron out. Just send 'em along with the Sansin hubs over to the Super Sport line; they'll know what to do with 'em...."
Except that the "Super Sport Line" is setup to build wheels with 32 h Rigida SX100 rims which are 19mm wide and they're going to put 23 mm tires on them. They don't have enough spokes for the Super Champion rims, the spokes they have are not long enough, the 23 mm tires are about the same width as the rim. The Wolber Super Champion Model 58 rims are just not a reasonable substitution for the specified rims.
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Old 01-29-20, 01:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Roypercy View Post
Just another odd wrinkle on the "OEM or non-OEM" debate - according to the catalogs anyway, these very rims (Wolber 58) were standard equipment in '86, '87 and '88 on the Voyageur, which at the time was a Tenax-framed, rather lightweight (24 lbs) touring model, with Sansin sealed hubs some years, maillard sealed hubs other years. Except - the Wolbers on the Voyageur were 27" rims, and mine are 700c. In fact Wolbers show up as OEM in the catalogs a lot during the mid-80s, but only in 27" size.

I'll pull the wheel this weekend and try to determine the maker of the hub. Interesting mystery!
The Model 58 rims would, in my opinion, be an odd choice for Schwinn to make for that bike. They are heavy, wide, and strong while the Super Sport was light with light, narrow rims and skinny tires. It seems to me that putting Model 58 rims on a Super Sport would be about as likely as putting Rigida Scores on a Voyager.
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Old 01-29-20, 02:08 PM
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Originally Posted by cadillacmike68 View Post
The CPSC ruined the aesthetics of Campy parts in 1978 and they are still doing so...
To what are you referring?
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Old 01-29-20, 02:29 PM
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Originally Posted by cyccommute View Post
To what are you referring?
Googled Campagnolo and CPSC and this headline turned up:

Gore Recalls Ride-On Bicycle Brake Cables Due to Fall Hazard | CPSC.gov

My initial impression was that Al Gore must have fallen off while riding a bicycle and become entangled in the brake cables and later given an account of it.
I was wrong.

As far as I can tell, Campagnolo CPSC compliance entailed covering brake wheel guides with rubber, putting a lip on the NR front derailleur which necessitated 2mm BB spindle length increase, putting rubber around the rear derailleur limit screws and something about a domed nut on something. Maybe there were other compliance actions, but these are the ones that people have written about and, thusly, turn up on cursory searches. I won't comment on the aesthetics. But as mandated safety compliance issues, these all seem sort of trivial. But, maybe the leading edge of the old style NR front derailleur caused a train derailment or something, who knows?
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Old 01-29-20, 02:43 PM
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So Campag-style brake levers cause global warming? Or is there content that requires parental advisory, maybe?.....

I think the Campag/CPSC reference is to the wheel/skewer QR lever, once elegantly flat, now required to have an unsightly curve.
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