Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Classic & Vintage
Reload this Page >

A little help with this frameset, please.

Notices
Classic & Vintage This forum is to discuss the many aspects of classic and vintage bicycles, including musclebikes, lightweights, middleweights, hi-wheelers, bone-shakers, safety bikes and much more.

A little help with this frameset, please.

Old 02-09-20, 06:04 PM
  #1  
ddeand 
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
ddeand's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Twin Cities
Posts: 785
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 160 Post(s)
Liked 29 Times in 15 Posts
A little help with this frameset, please.

I picked up a frameset today at the local bike swap for a build I want to do for my Grandson. He will shortly outgrow the 58cm Miyata I built for him earlier. The frame I got should be good for him since he'll likely grow a couple more inches. The frame was advertised as a custom, handmade build, and there's nothing that would lead me to believe any differently. But I'm not sure what I actually have in terms of quality, age, expectations. That's why I'm asking for help. Here's what I know:
  • Steel frame (of course) with pretty nice welds (check the dropout welds)
  • Looks like moderate touring geometry with wheels on it
  • English thread bottom bracket
  • Campy headset
  • Shimano dropouts with eyelets
  • 126mm spacing in the back drops
  • 27.2mm seat post
  • A local builder and a local shop owner indicated that the tubing might be Columbus of some sort
  • Steerer tube feels like it has ridges on the inside
  • Seat tube doesn't appear to be grooved or ridged
  • Stamping on BB says "Armbruster" and "4 20 85" (I'm assuming that's the build date)
  • Two pump pegs (top tube and seat tube)
  • two sets of bottle cage brazeons
  • Brake cable guides on top of top tube
I've attached a bunch of pics of the frame. I have no expectation of finding out who built this, but I would like to know what the overall quality of the bike might be (Good, Bad, Ugly)? Then I can determine what level of components shouold go on the bike. I will strip the frame and fork and repaint or powdercoat it - we'll see what the grandson wants for color. Any help identifying the quality (or lack thereof) of the frame is greatly appreciated. Thanks!






__________________
Some days, it's not even worth gnawing through the restraints.

Last edited by ddeand; 02-09-20 at 06:36 PM.
ddeand is offline  
Old 02-09-20, 06:06 PM
  #2  
ddeand 
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
ddeand's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Twin Cities
Posts: 785
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 160 Post(s)
Liked 29 Times in 15 Posts
More Pics of the frame.











Thanks again!
__________________
Some days, it's not even worth gnawing through the restraints.
ddeand is offline  
Old 02-09-20, 06:12 PM
  #3  
3speedslow
Senior Member
 
3speedslow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Jacksonville, NC
Posts: 7,706

Bikes: A few

Mentioned: 104 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1382 Post(s)
Liked 154 Times in 121 Posts
I would definitely put this in the quality frame pile. Lucky Grandson! Never seen two frame pump location choices before.
3speedslow is offline  
Likes For 3speedslow:
Old 02-09-20, 06:15 PM
  #4  
Kabuki12
Senior Member
 
Kabuki12's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Ventura County ,California
Posts: 695

Bikes: 1973 Windsor Profesional,1976 Kabuki diamond formula with full Campy, 1977 Raleigh Competition GS , 1971 Stella original Campy equip. 1978 Raleigh Super Grand Prix, 1972 Italvega Gran Rally ,1972 Super Mondia Special,Medici Pro Strada

Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 151 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 109 Times in 79 Posts
I have never seen two frame pump pegs on a frame . I guess the top tube one would be used if there was a water bottle mounted to the seat tube. It looks like a quality built frame , the vertical rear drops makes it easier to mount the rear wheel. Anything else about this is a mystery to me. I would like to see it built up. Joe
Kabuki12 is offline  
Likes For Kabuki12:
Old 02-09-20, 06:16 PM
  #5  
Mad Honk 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2019
Location: Bloomington, IN
Posts: 596

Bikes: Trek 770, Trek 760, Schwinn Peloton, Patelli Professional, Othon Ochsner

Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 251 Post(s)
Liked 136 Times in 109 Posts
The parts look right for an '85 make. I am going to venture a Columbus tubing set and built by a low volume shop. I would suspect it is going to ride a bit quick from looking at the geometry. When you look at the steerer tube it should have the Columbus dove on it. That would tell you it is a higher end build. Smiles, MH
Mad Honk is offline  
Likes For Mad Honk:
Old 02-09-20, 06:44 PM
  #6  
Doug Fattic 
framebuilder
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Niles, Michigan
Posts: 461
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 107 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 66 Times in 40 Posts
That frame is made with Henry James Investment cast lugs and bottom bracket shell. A set of those costs around $150 so that puts it well into the above average custom category. The fork crown is also investment cast. I couldn't see well enough from the pictures if the indent on the chain stays matched the indents Columbus used to do. Some of the frame finishing details are not as well done as a master builder would do. The "gate" on the seat binder would be filed off and the area where the dropouts attaches to the blades and stays could be much better done. However overall it appears to be superior to some kind of production made frame. I would suspect this frame was made by a beginning builder or a one or two man shop perhaps trying to make a modestly priced custom frame. The head angle looks the picture to be really steep compared to the seat angle.
Doug Fattic is online now  
Likes For Doug Fattic:
Old 02-09-20, 10:53 PM
  #7  
ddeand 
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
ddeand's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Twin Cities
Posts: 785
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 160 Post(s)
Liked 29 Times in 15 Posts
Thanks for the help, so far!

A couple more pics. The bike builder first looked at the chain stay indents and he and the other shop owner agreed that the indents looked like Columbus. The steerer does not have a dove, so I'm not sure what it is. The numbers that are stamped on the BB are also stamped on the steerer tube. When I set the bike up with wheels, the head angle, while still steep, was not as severe as pictured previously. Total weight of the frame and fork is 6.1 lbs.


__________________
Some days, it's not even worth gnawing through the restraints.
ddeand is offline  
Old 02-10-20, 01:29 AM
  #8  
P!N20
Senior Member
 
P!N20's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 815
Mentioned: 15 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 353 Post(s)
Liked 170 Times in 132 Posts
Originally Posted by ddeand View Post
The bike builder first looked at the chain stay indents and he and the other shop owner agreed that the indents looked like Columbus. The steerer does not have a dove, so I'm not sure what it is.
Chainstay crimps were usually done by the frame builder, werenít they?

Not all Columbus forks have a dove.
P!N20 is offline  
Likes For P!N20:
Old 02-10-20, 11:16 AM
  #9  
ddeand 
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
ddeand's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Twin Cities
Posts: 785
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 160 Post(s)
Liked 29 Times in 15 Posts
Here’s a shot of the steerer innards.

__________________
Some days, it's not even worth gnawing through the restraints.
ddeand is offline  
Old 02-10-20, 11:24 AM
  #10  
thumpism 
Bikes are okay, I guess.
 
thumpism's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Richmond, Virginia
Posts: 5,320

Bikes: Waterford Paramount Touring, Bridgestone RB-T, Trek 510 city build, Giant CFM-2, Raleigh Sports 3-speeds in M23 & L23, Schwinn Cimarron oddball build, Marin Palisades Trail dropbar conversion

Mentioned: 43 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1481 Post(s)
Liked 217 Times in 160 Posts
Rifled steerer would be SPX, wouldn't it?
thumpism is offline  
Old 02-10-20, 11:50 AM
  #11  
himespau 
Senior Member
 
himespau's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 11,217
Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1770 Post(s)
Liked 172 Times in 123 Posts
Cool frame.
himespau is offline  
Old 02-10-20, 12:18 PM
  #12  
Wildwood
Veteran/Pacifist/Resister
 
Wildwood's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Seattle area
Posts: 9,348

Bikes: Bikes??? Thought this was social media?!?

Mentioned: 209 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2082 Post(s)
Liked 367 Times in 255 Posts
Same fork crown (i believe) as one of my '82 bikes; but a serial of 4 20 85 might be April 20th, 1985?. (edit: implying USA nomenclature?)

Pump pegs on 2 different tubes sounds a custom feature (or French) to me.
I buy into the 'small builder' theory.
(

Last edited by Wildwood; 02-10-20 at 01:09 PM.
Wildwood is offline  
Old 02-10-20, 01:22 PM
  #13  
machinist42
Senior Member
 
machinist42's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Silver Lake, Wilmington, NC
Posts: 1,224

Bikes: 1964 Schwinn Paramount P-13 DeLuxe, 1964 Schwinn Sport Super Sport, 1972 Falcon San Remo, 1974 Maserati MT-1, 1974 Raleigh International, 1984 Lotus Odyssey, 198? Rossin Ghibli, 1990 LeMond Le Vanquer (sic), 1991 Specialized Allez Transition Pro, +

Mentioned: 15 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 473 Post(s)
Liked 49 Times in 36 Posts
Originally Posted by ddeand View Post
Hereís a shot of the steerer innards.

How many ridges, and do they spiral? See this thread?
machinist42 is offline  
Old 02-10-20, 01:36 PM
  #14  
Doug Fattic 
framebuilder
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Niles, Michigan
Posts: 461
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 107 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 66 Times in 40 Posts
The picture showing the chain stay dent and the underside of the fork crown identify the tubing as Columbus. The newer picture of the entire frame with wheels attached shows it has a more normal geometry than I 1st suspected. The Henry James lugs almost certainly point to it being built in America. That means it was probably made in small one man shop. I'm guessing that the owner requested 2 pump pegs because he usually only used one water bottle and then would put the pump along the seat tube but on hot days might want 2 water bottles and then would put the pump under the top tube (because that makes it more inconvenient to carry).
Doug Fattic is online now  
Likes For Doug Fattic:
Old 02-10-20, 01:49 PM
  #15  
non-fixie 
Shifting is fun!
 
non-fixie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: South Holland, NL
Posts: 8,355

Bikes: Yes, please.

Mentioned: 216 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1251 Post(s)
Liked 310 Times in 210 Posts
Nice frame! And there have been days I wished I had been carrying a second pump that actually worked ...
__________________
The postman with my new frame: I'll be here when he comes!

non-fixie is offline  
Old 02-10-20, 01:56 PM
  #16  
francophile 
PM me your cotters
 
francophile's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: ATL
Posts: 2,936
Mentioned: 60 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 769 Post(s)
Liked 203 Times in 155 Posts
I would just add, the SLX Razesa with very similar fork to yours I sold to @NHmtb two weeks ago has a Tange fork with the spiraling rifles as you show on the inner crown of yours. The steer tube clearly had "TANGE" stamped into it, though. I didn't remember to get a count. Maybe I have some pics somewhere...
__________________
███████████████

francophile is offline  
Old 02-10-20, 02:42 PM
  #17  
ddeand 
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
ddeand's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Twin Cities
Posts: 785
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 160 Post(s)
Liked 29 Times in 15 Posts
Thank you all for the info and comments. I had hoped this was a workable frame for my project. My thinking right now is to build the bike up with at least a Shimano 105 level group. I won’t be able to get to the refinishing until things warm up here in Minnesota. My grandson is very appreciative of the bikes I build for him (his younger brother will get his Miyata 312). He is a cancer survivor (at age 12) and has developed a very nice outlook on life. On the one hand, he is a typical hormone-driven 15- year old, but he also really enjoys hanging and riding with his granddad. As I work through this build, I’ll keep you all posted. Again, thanks for the help!
__________________
Some days, it's not even worth gnawing through the restraints.
ddeand is offline  
Old 02-10-20, 04:31 PM
  #18  
obrentharris 
Senior Member
 
obrentharris's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
Posts: 2,585

Bikes: fewer (n-1)

Mentioned: 55 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 639 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 162 Times in 80 Posts
Iíll be the possible wet blanket here.
When dealing with a frame of unknown provenance it would be prudent to build it up with whatever components you have on hand so that you can see how it rides before sinking much time and money into paint, components, etc.
A frame from someone who may have only built a handful of frames is especially suspect simply because there is no body of work on which to base judgement. The best frame components and finish work in the world wonít make up for poor design.
It may ride like a dream, but better to find out as early as possible in the process.
Brent
obrentharris is offline  
Likes For obrentharris:
Old 02-10-20, 04:53 PM
  #19  
ddeand 
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
ddeand's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Twin Cities
Posts: 785
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 160 Post(s)
Liked 29 Times in 15 Posts
Originally Posted by obrentharris View Post
I’ll be the possible wet blanket here.
When dealing with a frame of unknown provenance it would be prudent to build it up with whatever components you have on hand so that you can see how it rides before sinking much time and money into paint, components, etc.
A frame from someone who may have only built a handful of frames is especially suspect simply because there is no body of work on which to base judgement. The best frame components and finish work in the world won’t make up for poor design.
It may ride like a dream, but better to find out as early as possible in the process.
Brent
Actually, that’s a good idea - you’re not being a wet blanket, though. I have the parts to do a basic setup (one brake, no derailleurs) - just the crankset, wheels, pedals, seat. Then I can get it out for a few minutes on a clear, dry day to see if it will be satisfactory. I already have the parts for a build, so that’s not an issue. But a test run is a good idea. Thanks.
__________________
Some days, it's not even worth gnawing through the restraints.
ddeand is offline  
Old 02-10-20, 10:47 PM
  #20  
merziac
Senior Member
 
merziac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: PDX
Posts: 5,139

Bikes: Merz x 5 + Specialized Merz Allez x 2, Strawberry/Newlands/DiNucci x2, Gordon, Fuso/Moulton x2, Bornstein, Paisley,1958-74 Paramounts x3, 3rensho, 74 Moto TC, 73-78 Raleigh Pro's x5, Marinoni x2, 1960 Cinelli SC, 1980 Bianchi SC, PX-10 X 2

Mentioned: 123 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1485 Post(s)
Liked 338 Times in 259 Posts
Originally Posted by ddeand View Post
Thank you all for the info and comments. I had hoped this was a workable frame for my project. My thinking right now is to build the bike up with at least a Shimano 105 level group. I wonít be able to get to the refinishing until things warm up here in Minnesota. My grandson is very appreciative of the bikes I build for him (his younger brother will get his Miyata 312). He is a cancer survivor (at age 12) and has developed a very nice outlook on life. On the one hand, he is a typical hormone-driven 15- year old, but he also really enjoys hanging and riding with his granddad. As I work through this build, Iíll keep you all posted. Again, thanks for the help!
Can we assume the lads are learning the craft as well?

Lads, tools and skills is a beautiful thing, especially by Grandads hand.
merziac is offline  
Likes For merziac:
Old 02-12-20, 11:08 PM
  #21  
unworthy1
Stop reading my posts!
 
unworthy1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 10,438
Mentioned: 52 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 414 Post(s)
Liked 75 Times in 62 Posts
Originally Posted by Doug Fattic View Post
That frame is made with Henry James Investment cast lugs and bottom bracket shell.
Isn't that a Hitachi logo near the edge of the BB shell? Sometimes that indicates a Takahashi brand shell (although Hitachi was the caster) but never heard that Henry James (Hank Folsom) used Hitachi to cast those products: "All Henry James BB shells are proudly made in the USA." says the website
unworthy1 is offline  
Old 02-12-20, 11:22 PM
  #22  
Doug Fattic 
framebuilder
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Niles, Michigan
Posts: 461
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 107 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 66 Times in 40 Posts
Originally Posted by unworthy1 View Post
Isn't that a Hitachi logo near the edge of the BB shell? Sometimes that indicates a Takahashi brand shell (although Hitachi was the caster) but never heard that Henry James (Hank Folsom) used Hitachi to cast those products: "All Henry James BB shells are proudly made in the USA." says the website
I was wrong it is not a Henry James Bottom bracket shell. I have seen some investment cast lugs made in Taiwan (I assume) that were similar to Henry James lugs. I do believe that those are real Henry James lugs. The frame was likely made in the midwest and it was very common in the 80's for everyone around here to use HJ lugs. They came in different angles that made building a frame easier without the need to blacksmith them to fit the chosen design.
Doug Fattic is online now  
Old 02-14-20, 06:38 PM
  #23  
Last ride 76 
Senior Member
 
Last ride 76's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Just moved...1 km S. Now above the "Bike Path" ( River Road, Piermont, NY)
Posts: 1,383

Bikes: Old Bikes: '74 Ron Cooper, Crashed and repaired '76, restored 2015!!! need restoration '74 Witcomb track bike (bought in '75) '75 Carlsbad Masi, bought in '76 New bikes: 84-85 Gios torino "Professional" '76 Olmo Competition C Titiano

Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 322 Post(s)
Liked 120 Times in 101 Posts
Originally Posted by thumpism View Post
Rifled steerer would be SPX, wouldn't it?
SLX, SPX, SL, and SP all had rifled steering tubes. Need to examine tubes at the BB for rifling to rule in either SLX or SPX.
I also believe that some Japanese tubing used helical reinforcements on some steering tubes, but perhaps fewer, or more and slightly wider and flatter, IIRC.

Last edited by Last ride 76; 02-14-20 at 06:48 PM.
Last ride 76 is offline  

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.