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Wood BB and alloy crank bolt?

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Wood BB and alloy crank bolt?

Old 03-09-20, 07:57 AM
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Phil Wood BB and alloy crank bolt?

I recently picked up a 1971 Witcomb. It has what I believe to be a Phil Wood bottom bracket. I've never taken one apart so I wanted to ask if it is a Wood before buying the tool to take it out.

Also the bike has very light weight crank bolts that I believe are aluminum alloy. Was that a "thing" BITD? I've never seen one and it seems like a stupid place to save weight but there you have it.



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Old 03-09-20, 08:01 AM
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Oh, you got me. Good tittle. I was expecting some sort of wooden bottom bracket. The bolt looks like it is cadmium plated steel. Use a magnet to be be sure it is steel.
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Old 03-09-20, 08:27 AM
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Wonder if the bolts are titanium if not steel?
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Old 03-09-20, 08:34 AM
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It's too light to be steel. It is painted but perhaps it's ti. I need to track down a magnet!
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Old 03-09-20, 08:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Velo Mule View Post
Oh, you got me. Good tittle. I was expecting some sort of wooden bottom bracket. The bolt looks like it is cadmium plated steel. Use a magnet to be be sure it is steel.
lol, good point. A wood BB (as opposed to a phil wood) would have been an awesome find. I need to find a way to change the thread title. In the meantime, it's good click bait, right?

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Old 03-09-20, 08:46 AM
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Yes, aluminum crank bolts were a weight weenie item. You would install the crankarm using the stock, steel bolt, then remove the steel bolt and replace it with the lighter aluminum version.
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Old 03-09-20, 08:50 AM
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Originally Posted by T-Mar View Post
Yes, aluminum crank bolts were a weight weenie item. You would install the crankarm using the stock, steel bolt, then remove the steel bolt and replace it with the lighter aluminum version.
That makes sense.

Last edited by bikemig; 03-09-20 at 08:13 PM.
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Old 03-09-20, 08:56 AM
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I thought it was a clever tittle. It got me to look right away.

Perhaps this is gold anodized aluminum bolt. That is beyond weight weenie! I think that T-mar's advice is good. Install with a steel bolt, replace it with the gold anodized bolt, weigh the bike and then immediately replace again with the steel bolt. Is the spindle hollow?

Ok, I believe following T-mar's advice would work, but I wouldn't ride with the aluminum bolts.
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Old 03-09-20, 09:05 AM
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Just remember not to torque down the aluminum bolt too hard or risk the head cracking off on you....
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Old 03-09-20, 09:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Chombi1 View Post
Just remember not to torque down the aluminum bolt too hard or risk the head cracking off on you....
Agreed. I'm dumping those aluminum bolts (I'll save them for a weight weenie build) and running steel for sure.
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Old 03-09-20, 10:05 AM
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.
...it's sort of interesting it has that lock ring on there. I don't know any way for sure to distinguish the Phil Wood BB without trying a tool in there. I think it has something to do with the number of splines. If it's not Shimano or Campagnolo, the only other thing I encounter here is the Phil Wood BB's .
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Old 03-09-20, 10:08 AM
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Originally Posted by 3alarmer View Post
.
...it's sort of interesting it has that lock ring on there. I don't know any way for sure to distinguish the Phil Wood BB without trying a tool in there. I think it has something to do with the number of splines. If it's not Shimano or Campagnolo, the only other thing I encounter here is the Phil Wood BB's .
I assume the lockring was put there because there were some exposed threads on the unit. The shimano tool does not fit and I don't have a campy tool. In any case, all the parts are from the early 70s and Wood is the most likely BB. I just hate to buy the tool without knowing whether this is a Wood BB but I think you're right. There's no way to tell until you try to use the tool.
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Old 03-09-20, 11:00 AM
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Anyway to take it into local bike shop? If you have a good relationship with the mechanic, they may let you use the tool for free.
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Old 03-09-20, 11:04 AM
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Originally Posted by T-Mar View Post
Yes, aluminum crank bolts were a weight weenie item. You would install the crankarm using the stock, steel bolt, then remove the steel bolt and replace it with the lighter aluminum version.
Yeah, that was a thing. I remember people doing this.
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Old 03-09-20, 11:22 AM
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Balsa wood spindle, painted silver...., no less.
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Old 03-09-20, 11:29 AM
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Looks like a Phil to me, or at least Phil rings.
I have been surprised before!
Those are Arnold Industries aluminum "retaining" bolts.
Attach the cranks with a steel bolt, remove then install to retain the arms, do not try to set them with those.
They WILL break.
Don't be afraid of them.
Knowledge is power
They are 70's Cool.
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Old 03-09-20, 11:32 AM
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repechage
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Originally Posted by Chombi1 View Post
Just remember not to torque down the aluminum bolt too hard or risk the head cracking off on you....
Teledyne ti bolts will fail too...
"these are delicate instruments" ya know.
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Old 03-09-20, 11:42 AM
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Looks like a Phil to me as well, BUT, the vintage Phil bottom brackets had asymmetrical spindles and the both sides of the rings would have been flush with the edge of the BB shell. There would not have been room for a lock ring on there. I suppose this could be relatively modern Phil Wood that was put on much later; it's possible. I don't remember the red bearing, but it's been a long time. Modern Phil bearings are not red.

FWIW, there were quite a few lesser known sealed bottom bracket BITD. This could be one of them. That makes more sense to me. Maybe some of them were designed to use the Phil spline standard. OR it could be Phil Wood rings on some other BB, as suggested above. With current info, that would be my best guess.

I'm not at home so I can't check but IIRC Phil tools have 18 teeth and the Shimano BB tools have 20 teeth.

Last edited by Salamandrine; 03-09-20 at 12:19 PM.
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Old 03-09-20, 11:58 AM
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The Phil tool has 18 teeth that should slide into 18 slots in the "cup." It is darned close to 30mm in diameter. (My digital calipers are broken)
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Old 03-09-20, 12:17 PM
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This Phil BB posted on Velobase looks like a match. It has a symmetrical spindle and red bearings. Was this a really early one? Anyone know? By the time I was working on them a lot they were asymmetrical and neither the adjustable or the drive side cup/ring protruded past the BB shell. No lockrings at all.

It's kind of funny that there is a steel lock ring on that cup, considering the crank bolts are aluminum.

VeloBase.com - Component: Phil Wood (Cartridge Bearing)

(Image pilfered from above Velobase page)


Addendum. OK. Looks like this was the original design from the first year of production in 1972. Makes sense. Phil Wood didn't make them this way for very long.

Last edited by Salamandrine; 03-09-20 at 12:28 PM.
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Old 03-09-20, 12:17 PM
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Originally Posted by repechage View Post
Looks like a Phil to me, or at least Phil rings.
I have been surprised before!
Those are Arnold Industries aluminum "retaining" bolts.
Attach the cranks with a steel bolt, remove then install to retain the arms, do not try to set them with those.
They WILL break.
Don't be afraid of them.
Knowledge is power
They are 70's Cool.
Here is a set that was for sale on eBay for $25 & free shipping. A bargain ,right?

https://www.ebay.ie/itm/Arnold-Indus...-/133351857704

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Old 03-09-20, 12:21 PM
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Somembody was closing out ti crank fixing bolts for 10.00. I bought a couple of sets and they work well. Of course i tighten with steel and really cant tell the diff on my touring bike.
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Old 03-09-20, 12:27 PM
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Originally Posted by 52telecaster View Post
Somembody was closing out ti crank fixing bolts for 10.00. I bought a couple of sets and they work well. Of course i tighten with steel and really cant tell the diff on my touring bike.
Wait you use these on your touring bike? Brave man. Tell me that at least you cut your toothbrush in half.
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Old 03-09-20, 12:35 PM
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Originally Posted by bikemig View Post
I recently picked up a 1971 Witcomb. It has what I believe to be a Phil Wood bottom bracket. I've never taken one apart so I wanted to ask if it is a Wood before buying the tool to take it out.

Also the bike has very light weight crank bolts that I believe are aluminum alloy. Was that a "thing" BITD? I've never seen one and it seems like a stupid place to save weight but there you have it.


The mounting ring doesn't quite look like Phil:



Phil didn't use lockrings either, but that could have been an end-user modification.

The bolt looks like Arnold Industries' gold anodized aluminum crank bolts:

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Old 03-09-20, 01:08 PM
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Originally Posted by JohnDThompson View Post
The mounting ring doesn't quite look like Phil:



Phil didn't use lockrings either, but that could have been an end-user modification.

The bolt looks like Arnold Industries' gold anodized aluminum crank bolts:

Don't forget one side has the counterbore for the cartridge, the other outside is flush, I count the same number of "teeth"
I would buy a Phil form factor remover if I did not own one...
(reminds me that I need to buy a 4 prong Winner Pro remover... I did find my three prong TDC..., two prong Suntour "perfect" Regina, Phil "atom" form factor... and a number of others... One always needs the next one on the shopping list)
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