Should I be worried? Crack(s)
03-17-20, 04:31 PM
#26
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the seat tube top is pressed together to get that shape. Most of the time they use a special insert with that shape. But not on this frame. I think by pressing it together and shaping it like that the material weakens. I just noticed a dent at the bottom of the seat stay. That's probably what started the crack near the seat.
03-17-20, 04:58 PM
#27
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Aha! Yes, if the bike took a hit from that side, that would explain a lot. Must have been quite a bit of deformation, though. And the top is still solidly attached to the seat lug. If the frame was straightened afterwards, the stress would have been relieved and the damage might not be too bad. As in 'fairly easily repairable' by a competent brazer.
03-17-20, 06:21 PM
#28
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this thread tells me ....... I have at least 2 frames in this category of 'worth the time of close inspection under strong lighting'.
Thank you in advance???
Hopefully - for nothing!
Here's one, rather graphic. A frame (now straight) worth 'keeping an eye on', as I'm no lightweight.
Thank you in advance???
Hopefully - for nothing!
Here's one, rather graphic. A frame (now straight) worth 'keeping an eye on', as I'm no lightweight.
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Vintage, modern, e-road. It is a big cycling universe.
Last edited by Wildwood; 03-17-20 at 06:34 PM.
03-18-20, 01:54 AM
#29
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And I have a hard time explaining it the seat tube top is pressed together to get that shape. Most of the time they use a special insert with that shape. But not on this frame.
I think by pressing it together and shaping it like that the material weakens. I just noticed a dent at the bottom of the seat stay. That's probably what started the crack near the seat.
the seat tube top is pressed together to get that shape. Most of the time they use a special insert with that shape. But not on this frame.I think by pressing it together and shaping it like that the material weakens. I just noticed a dent at the bottom of the seat stay. That's probably what started the crack near the seat.
03-18-20, 03:13 AM
#30
Senior Member
Thread Starter
this thread tells me ....... I have at least 2 frames in this category of 'worth the time of close inspection under strong lighting'.
Thank you in advance???
Hopefully - for nothing!
Here's one, rather graphic. A frame (now straight) worth 'keeping an eye on', as I'm no lightweight.
Thank you in advance???
Hopefully - for nothing!
Here's one, rather graphic. A frame (now straight) worth 'keeping an eye on', as I'm no lightweight.
03-18-20, 04:01 AM
#31
verktyg
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Inexpensive Bike Boom Era French Or Dutch Bike
The Cycles Tourmalet marque with "Tricolor" bands on the seat tube suggests a French made bike or maybe Dutch, probably from the early 70's. Red, white and blue are the banner colors for both France and The Netherlands (although ORANGE is more common for Holland).
When an unrecognized brand or model of bike came into our shop for service, the first thing we automatically looked at were the dropouts. Cheap, thin stamped steel dropouts were usually an indicator of an inexpensive bike that frequently required more money to service or repair than the bike was worth. We didn't touch cheap gas pipe department store bikes for liability reasons!
There were many exceptions, for example Brit bikes such as lower end Mercians, Holdsworths and the like that came with stamped dropouts plus many others so it wasn't for bike snob reasons, just good business sense.
Crimped seat stay tops were uncommon on even entry level French bikes, more like Dutch, German or Austrian bikes. That combined with the stamped dropouts and imitation Nervex Professional lugs calls into question the quality of this frame. The lengthwise crack lower down on the seat stay tells me that it's made of cheap seemed tubing.
If there were some indication of the tubing quality such as Reynolds, Vitus or Durifort then it might be worth repairing. If not then I'd suggest looking for a replacement frame. I'm guessing the OP is from Europe. You can find whole bikes to use as a donor for less than what it would cost to do a cheap repair on the frame.
One reason for problems at the seat stay/seat lug connection is the amount of heat required to build up a fillet of brazing material between the stay and lug. When brazing or welding raised surfaces heat up quickly, especially with the thin walled tubes used on bikes.
Overheating seat stay tops is one reason why cracks are so common in that area.There is very little material to dissipate the heat. Also the defection of the seat lug when tightened down on the seatpost.
The seat stays on a lot of bikes were swagged and what appear as cracks are many times voids in the brazing. This was especially true during the bike boom when European makers were scrambling to get bikes out the door as quickly as they could box them up.
BTW, that's a classic Belgian made Titan alloy seatpost.
verktyg
When an unrecognized brand or model of bike came into our shop for service, the first thing we automatically looked at were the dropouts. Cheap, thin stamped steel dropouts were usually an indicator of an inexpensive bike that frequently required more money to service or repair than the bike was worth. We didn't touch cheap gas pipe department store bikes for liability reasons!
There were many exceptions, for example Brit bikes such as lower end Mercians, Holdsworths and the like that came with stamped dropouts plus many others so it wasn't for bike snob reasons, just good business sense.
Crimped seat stay tops were uncommon on even entry level French bikes, more like Dutch, German or Austrian bikes. That combined with the stamped dropouts and imitation Nervex Professional lugs calls into question the quality of this frame. The lengthwise crack lower down on the seat stay tells me that it's made of cheap seemed tubing.
If there were some indication of the tubing quality such as Reynolds, Vitus or Durifort then it might be worth repairing. If not then I'd suggest looking for a replacement frame. I'm guessing the OP is from Europe. You can find whole bikes to use as a donor for less than what it would cost to do a cheap repair on the frame.
One reason for problems at the seat stay/seat lug connection is the amount of heat required to build up a fillet of brazing material between the stay and lug. When brazing or welding raised surfaces heat up quickly, especially with the thin walled tubes used on bikes.
Overheating seat stay tops is one reason why cracks are so common in that area.There is very little material to dissipate the heat. Also the defection of the seat lug when tightened down on the seatpost.
The seat stays on a lot of bikes were swagged and what appear as cracks are many times voids in the brazing. This was especially true during the bike boom when European makers were scrambling to get bikes out the door as quickly as they could box them up.
BTW, that's a classic Belgian made Titan alloy seatpost.
verktyg
__________________
Don't believe everything you think! History is written by those who weren't there....
Chas. ;-)
Don't believe everything you think! History is written by those who weren't there....
Chas. ;-)
Last edited by verktyg; 03-18-20 at 04:28 AM.
03-18-20, 05:21 AM
#32
Senior Member
Thread Starter
The Cycles Tourmalet marque with "Tricolor" bands on the seat tube suggests a French made bike or maybe Dutch, probably from the early 70's. Red, white and blue are the banner colors for both France and The Netherlands (although ORANGE is more common for Holland).
When an unrecognized brand or model of bike came into our shop for service, the first thing we automatically looked at were the dropouts. Cheap, thin stamped steel dropouts were usually an indicator of an inexpensive bike that frequently required more money to service or repair than the bike was worth. We didn't touch cheap gas pipe department store bikes for liability reasons!
There were many exceptions, for example Brit bikes such as lower end Mercians, Holdsworths and the like that came with stamped dropouts plus many others so it wasn't for bike snob reasons, just good business sense.
Crimped seat stay tops were uncommon on even entry level French bikes, more like Dutch, German or Austrian bikes. That combined with the stamped dropouts and imitation Nervex Professional lugs calls into question the quality of this frame. The lengthwise crack lower down on the seat stay tells me that it's made of cheap seemed tubing.
If there were some indication of the tubing quality such as Reynolds, Vitus or Durifort then it might be worth repairing. If not then I'd suggest looking for a replacement frame. I'm guessing the OP is from Europe. You can find whole bikes to use as a donor for less than what it would cost to do a cheap repair on the frame.
One reason for problems at the seat stay/seat lug connection is the amount of heat required to build up a fillet of brazing material between the stay and lug. When brazing or welding raised surfaces heat up quickly, especially with the thin walled tubes used on bikes.
Overheating seat stay tops is one reason why cracks are so common in that area.There is very little material to dissipate the heat. Also the defection of the seat lug when tightened down on the seatpost.
The seat stays on a lot of bikes were swagged and what appear as cracks are many times voids in the brazing. This was especially true during the bike boom when European makers were scrambling to get bikes out the door as quickly as they could box them up.
BTW, that's a classic Belgian made Titan alloy seatpost.
verktyg
When an unrecognized brand or model of bike came into our shop for service, the first thing we automatically looked at were the dropouts. Cheap, thin stamped steel dropouts were usually an indicator of an inexpensive bike that frequently required more money to service or repair than the bike was worth. We didn't touch cheap gas pipe department store bikes for liability reasons!
There were many exceptions, for example Brit bikes such as lower end Mercians, Holdsworths and the like that came with stamped dropouts plus many others so it wasn't for bike snob reasons, just good business sense.
Crimped seat stay tops were uncommon on even entry level French bikes, more like Dutch, German or Austrian bikes. That combined with the stamped dropouts and imitation Nervex Professional lugs calls into question the quality of this frame. The lengthwise crack lower down on the seat stay tells me that it's made of cheap seemed tubing.
If there were some indication of the tubing quality such as Reynolds, Vitus or Durifort then it might be worth repairing. If not then I'd suggest looking for a replacement frame. I'm guessing the OP is from Europe. You can find whole bikes to use as a donor for less than what it would cost to do a cheap repair on the frame.
One reason for problems at the seat stay/seat lug connection is the amount of heat required to build up a fillet of brazing material between the stay and lug. When brazing or welding raised surfaces heat up quickly, especially with the thin walled tubes used on bikes.
Overheating seat stay tops is one reason why cracks are so common in that area.There is very little material to dissipate the heat. Also the defection of the seat lug when tightened down on the seatpost.
The seat stays on a lot of bikes were swagged and what appear as cracks are many times voids in the brazing. This was especially true during the bike boom when European makers were scrambling to get bikes out the door as quickly as they could box them up.
BTW, that's a classic Belgian made Titan alloy seatpost.
verktyg
I have an other bike from the same rotterdam shop. Its older but it spend the last few years outside. It has oscar egg lugs and looks like better quality than this one. I might just pick that frame up from my small workshop and carefully examine the frame for cracks. If its oke I'll swap the components.
Visser Vainqueur potential project or scrap?
this is the bike in more detail.
03-18-20, 07:03 AM
#33
Randomhead
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The seat stay on the OP's frame wasn't cut, it was just squashed. Seat stays aren't too hard to replace, but it would probably cost more than it's worth. Silvering the crack would just be cosmetic. This is a difficult repair without replacing the stay. I think the frame should just be retired. If it was an emergency repair, I have seen people sleeve a stay top with another piece of tubing. The crack down by the bridge is something that could be welded.
This is an example of when it's not a great idea to remove paint. I could see in the original posts that it was a crack. After the OP removed the paint, I couldn't see a thing
This is an example of when it's not a great idea to remove paint. I could see in the original posts that it was a crack. After the OP removed the paint, I couldn't see a thing
Last edited by unterhausen; 03-18-20 at 07:07 AM.
03-18-20, 08:12 AM
#34
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What happened was:
Rescued from scrap in western Canada
Straightened in Portland
Built up here in Seattle.
BF members saved this one.
May it have a long life.
But I will inspect it closely.
adjusting the fork yielded a slight aero tilt. Rides perfectly straight & balanced.
Rescued from scrap in western Canada
Straightened in Portland
Built up here in Seattle.
BF members saved this one.
May it have a long life.
But I will inspect it closely.
adjusting the fork yielded a slight aero tilt. Rides perfectly straight & balanced.
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Vintage, modern, e-road. It is a big cycling universe.
Vintage, modern, e-road. It is a big cycling universe.
03-18-20, 08:17 AM
#35
Thrifty Bill
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Worried? No. It's just a bicycle frame. If you have to worry, worry about the BIG stuff.
Retire the frame? Yes.
Retire the frame? Yes.
03-18-20, 12:10 PM
#36
Senior Member
Thread Starter
What happened was:
Rescued from scrap in western Canada
Straightened in Portland
Built up here in Seattle.
BF members saved this one.
May it have a long life.
But I will inspect it closely.
adjusting the fork yielded a slight aero tilt. Rides perfectly straight & balanced.
Rescued from scrap in western Canada
Straightened in Portland
Built up here in Seattle.
BF members saved this one.
May it have a long life.
But I will inspect it closely.
adjusting the fork yielded a slight aero tilt. Rides perfectly straight & balanced.
03-18-20, 12:13 PM
#37
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Thread Starter
03-18-20, 12:59 PM
#38
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May I suggest advance searching 'zeus' postings, by Wildwood, over a year old.
'Karma bike' might turn up something.
Nutshell version, pardon any minor mis-statements:
(been told so many times as to be known as Wildwood's Karma Fable)
Rescued frame/fork by Stevensb from a bike cooperative in Calgary(?) CA
Bid on by myself and another, maybe others - sorta simutaneously.
And the winner = gugie
Who made it rideable and graciously sold it to me, most affordably.
It went to Lascauxcaveman for partial build
then to me for final build and upgrades, etc.
Contributing efforts with components from Andy Antipas, Drillium Dude and perhaps others
.Hands on assists in expert wrenching from SurferRosa and RiddleOfSteel
I did the latest changeover to center-pull brakes and replica hoods
The bike is worthy of an inspection.
If I get rid of it, it will be to a BF member - affordably.
Unless one of my nephews or son or son-in-law change their minds about riding vintage bikes.
apologies if Zeus contributors were omitted, in my telling.
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Last edited by Wildwood; 03-18-20 at 01:24 PM.
03-18-20, 01:52 PM
#39
verktyg
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Zues Frame
What happened was:
Rescued from scrap in western Canada
Straightened in Portland
Built up here in Seattle.
BF members saved this one.
May it have a long life.
But I will inspect it closely.
adjusting the fork yielded a slight aero tilt. Rides perfectly straight & balanced.
Rescued from scrap in western Canada
Straightened in Portland
Built up here in Seattle.
BF members saved this one.
May it have a long life.
But I will inspect it closely.
adjusting the fork yielded a slight aero tilt. Rides perfectly straight & balanced.
The early 70's Zeus Criterium frames like yours were made with 3 main tubes butted Reynolds 531 and Durifort forks and stays. That tubing combination was common on many top of the line French bikes into the early 70's.
Straightening and realigning your frame wasn't brain surgery or magic because it was a good quality frame to start with. Easy to do on a frame layout table. The BF member gugie who did the work did a nice job of it. I remember the original posts about your frame.
I had to do the same thing on a brand new Zeus that arrived at our shop damaged in the box by the trucking company.
The OP's bike is another story.... There's an old saying: "You can't make a silk purse out of a sows ear"
Assorted frame aligning tools and surgical instruments:
Park-FFS-1 Frame and Fork Straightener
Campy Dropout Tools
Hozan C-451 Spreader
Rear Derailleur Hanger Alignment Tool
Park Frame Alignment Gage
Park Frame Straightener - Older Model for front ender damage on lightly bent frames
"Little Brute" Jack Style Frame Straightener that we used at our shop
Ridgid Thin Wall Conduit Bender for minor fork realigning
And finally for minor adjustments, Campagnolo Frame Alignment Tool # 1 (AKA BFH)
Take me to the "Surgical Theater"....
verktyg
__________________
Don't believe everything you think! History is written by those who weren't there....
Chas. ;-)
Don't believe everything you think! History is written by those who weren't there....
Chas. ;-)
Last edited by verktyg; 03-18-20 at 02:02 PM.
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03-18-20, 02:39 PM
#40
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Thanks @verktyg. I think it was you that perhaps pegged this as a Z-59 or something. the pictured example from before only lacked the chromed sox.
Didn't mean to steal OP's thread, so apologies Locomotief
I started this tangent by offering that I had gained from this thread - realizing the potential GOOD value of time spent inspecting an old frame, closely.
But always productive to acknowledge the value of BF members.
Didn't mean to steal OP's thread, so apologies Locomotief
I started this tangent by offering that I had gained from this thread - realizing the potential GOOD value of time spent inspecting an old frame, closely.
But always productive to acknowledge the value of BF members.
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Vintage, modern, e-road. It is a big cycling universe.
Vintage, modern, e-road. It is a big cycling universe.
Last edited by Wildwood; 03-18-20 at 02:53 PM.
03-18-20, 02:44 PM
#41
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You really need to take the paint back to see where it has separated, it might just be the brazing that has split, it would be unusual for the metal to part . A specialist would be able to braze this back up again. I have had this done on Vintage motorcycles ( on non stress bearing items admittedly ) with great success.
BTW what is the frame please? I haven't seen seat stays like that before
BTW what is the frame please? I haven't seen seat stays like that before
