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-   -   The old and the new, the ying and the yang, the good, bad and the ugly, you decide. (https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-vintage/1196565-old-new-ying-yang-good-bad-ugly-you-decide.html)

qcpmsame 03-31-20 09:32 AM


Originally Posted by merziac (Post 21393277)
Tx Bill,

I put a lot of thought into it and struggled a bit several times, finally got here. ;)

The amount of thought is evident, take the struggles as part of the price. Its one great build, best one I have seen in a long while!

Bill

merziac 03-31-20 09:40 AM


Originally Posted by qcpmsame (Post 21393282)
The amount of thought is evident, take the struggles as part of the price. Its one great build, best one I have seen in a long while!

Bill

Agreed,Tx again.

Good thing brain cells and own time are free. :rolleyes:

63rickert 03-31-20 04:37 PM


Originally Posted by merziac (Post 21393235)
Its chrome steel Schwinn branded original, it had an older not original open nose Brooks Pro with Brooks clamp that is rock solid, I put a couple hundred miles on it before I changed it.

A 15mm is sloppy on it, pretty sure its Whitworth or BS, maybe just poorly sized, I have several very good Cresent's that work good to get a good bite that I used on the 58 but they are at their limit on this. I'm a lifelong tech/mechanic and have more tools than sense including dozens of wrench's, none are a proper fit so far.

I had not known Schwinn had own seatpost in 1958, that is quite interesting.

Only way I know to find a Whitworth (or maybe itís British Standard) that fits on a saddle clamp is to use an old Raleigh flat wrench. Which is better than nothing but too short and too sharp to do the job well. Good excuse to get a bigger Crescent. Or just get an Ideale 3. One of those would look good on this build. (Eddy Merckx used one, with wingnuts, so he could adjust saddle angle on the fly.)

merziac 03-31-20 06:25 PM


Originally Posted by 63rickert (Post 21394112)
I had not known Schwinn had own seatpost in 1958, that is quite interesting.

Only way I know to find a Whitworth (or maybe itís British Standard) that fits on a saddle clamp is to use an old Raleigh flat wrench. Which is better than nothing but too short and too sharp to do the job well. Good excuse to get a bigger Crescent. Or just get an Ideale 3. One of those would look good on this build. (Eddy Merckx used one, with wingnuts, so he could adjust saddle angle on the fly.)

Yep, SP, binder bolt, stem, HS, brakes. Wish it had the Schwinn hubs but by then they were Campy branded, supposedly the same but Schwinn branded before that,replaceable alloy flanges pressed onto steel barrels.

There are a couple of websites that have Whitworth wrenches and they are on efbay as well.

I have probably 20 "fit all" Cresent wrenches from 4in. to 24in. including a set of "Death Grip" Snap-on Flank Drive. They will snap bolts off before they let go so you have to be careful going there. I don't want to chew up this hardware so I will have to gather my Chi and finesse this carefully. ;)

I assume the beeswax acts like anti-seize on the threads and carbon paste like on the clamping parts somehow?

rhm 03-31-20 06:41 PM

Huh! Neat bike. Definitely not my thing. But the aesthetic speaks for itself. One look at all the photos, I think I understood what you were going for, and I think you nailed it. It's beautiful.

63rickert 03-31-20 06:44 PM


Originally Posted by merziac (Post 21394257)
Yep, SP, binder bolt, stem, HS, brakes. Wish it had the Schwinn hubs but by then they were Campy branded, supposedly the same but Schwinn branded before that,replaceable alloy flanges pressed onto steel barrels.

There are a couple of websites that have Whitworth wrenches and they are on efbay as well.

I have probably 20 "fit all" Cresent wrenches from 4in. to 24in. including a set of "Death Grip" Snap-on Flank Drive. They will snap bolts off before they let go so you have to be careful going there. I don't want to chew up this hardware so I will have to gather my Chi and finesse this carefully. ;)

I assume the beeswax acts like anti-seize on the threads and carbon paste like on the clamping parts somehow?

Old style saddle clamps, even Brooks, are cheap hardware. Lean on the wrench and no way to tell whatís tightening torque and what is just binding and interference. Grease works too but the wrench feel is just not as good and then you have loose grease collecting dirt. I use wax on the serrations as well. Again it improves wrench feel. Also since I started doing that old clamps that had previously slipped become serviceable. You might posit that wax on the serrations changes vibration or harmonics or posit anything you like, seems to work.

merziac 03-31-20 08:45 PM


Originally Posted by rhm (Post 21394278)
Huh! Neat bike. Definitely not my thing. But the aesthetic speaks for itself. One look at all the photos, I think I understood what you were going for, and I think you nailed it. It's beautiful.

Tx!

Obviously built it for me with my own skewed vision and agree that I indeed did nail it. Still have to get it out on the road after some fine tuning and the weather isn't really cooperating.

Although it was ok today and I should have ridden the rain bike to work today at least but no cigar, forecast was crap so I whimped out.

Normally overcoming the threat of rain motivates me to ride anyway but going to the hospital with this S**TSHOW storming straight at us is enough to kill any extra motivation so it's not happening when I probably need it most.

Also not up for struggling with the new setup so It will have to wait for the sun to hopefully motivate me. ;)

merziac 04-01-20 12:02 PM

So a friend called up the other day to say they were going to butcher a cow and wanted to know if we wanted in.

Part of the process is the hanging weight after it is dressed and before it is cut up.

This reminded me to weigh the Strawberry.

Any guesses, frame + fork, complete? ;)


https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...ffd55219a7.jpg

squirtdad 04-01-20 12:27 PM


Originally Posted by merziac (Post 21395396)
So a friend called up the other day to say they were going to butcher a cow and wanted to know if we wanted in.

Part of the process is the hanging weight after it is dressed and before it is cut up.

This reminded me to weigh the Strawberry.

Any guesses, frame + fork, complete? ;)


https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...ffd55219a7.jpg

22 lbs

merziac 04-01-20 12:47 PM


Originally Posted by squirtdad (Post 21395445)
22 lbs

Maybe without pedals, boat anchor seat, post, clamp and big tires. ;)

Now that I'm thinking about it I may swap out a few things or do some weight comparisons to see, 22lbs. would be ambitious but we'll see.

Weight was not a concern for the build but did assume it would not be light. I believe the fork, SS and CS tubes are all touring, strong or just plain heavy.

This size of a frame very much falls into the range where many builders go up at least 1 strength level to keep it strong enough.

A couple of the Merz's are pretty heavy for this reason but ride like a dream and can be loaded to the gills.

Dfrost 04-01-20 03:01 PM

Iíll guess 25 lbs as weighed, having my own big frames with leather saddles for data points. Mine (63cm) also have big but light Compass EL tires, and Ti-railed saddles, but not the extra height of this one. And I doubt that your rear fork approach saves weight.

merziac 04-01-20 03:42 PM


Originally Posted by Dfrost (Post 21395691)
Iíll guess 25 lbs as weighed, having my own big frames with leather saddles for data points. Mine (63cm) also have big but light Compass EL tires, and Ti-railed saddles, but not the extra height of this one. And I doubt that your rear fork approach saves weight.

Closer, the seat, post, clamp setup weighs 2.4 and could easily be cut in half or more to shed over 1lb.

Tires could lose 1lb. easy too.

I was surprised by the frame weight, it is not as much as I would have expected, certainly not light either, any guess on it?

Do you know how much any of yours weigh, frame only?

Dfrost 04-01-20 04:19 PM

Van,

My 63.5cm (ctt) Marinoni frame and fork with Chris King 1” headset came in at 3225gm (7.104 lbs). It’s standard diameter SLX tubing, but fully chrome underneath the original paint. You’ve seen it several times.

FWIW, its 700C version wheels with tb14 rims, Shimano tricolor hubs, 12-30 8-spd loose cog cassette, 700x32 Compass tires and heavy-ish Michelin tubes, Campy Chorus skewers weigh 1185gm front, 1820gm rear (650B set with 38mm EL but light tubes, weighed more recently, are about 90gm more). Whew, that’s a bunch of things to keep in mind.

Of course, that’s on my digital scales at the time. But it all weighs what it needs to!

merziac 04-01-20 06:32 PM


Originally Posted by Dfrost (Post 21395844)
Van,

My 63.5cm (ctt) Marinoni frame and fork with Chris King 1” headset came in at 3225gm (7.104 lbs). It’s standard diameter SLX tubing, but fully chrome underneath the original paint. You’ve seen it several times.

FWIW, its 700C version wheels with tb14 rims, Shimano tricolor hubs, 12-30 8-spd loose cog cassette, 700x32 Compass tires and heavy-ish Michelin tubes, Campy Chorus skewers weigh 1185gm front, 1820gm rear (650B set with 38mm EL but light tubes, weighed more recently, are about 90gm more). Whew, that’s a bunch of things to keep in mind.

Of course, that’s on my digital scales at the time. But it all weighs what it needs to!

Yep, seen it I have, a big part of my Marinoni appreciation, love it. Do you know how much the chrome adds and whats the total on it?

So mine is actually 64 ctt with about 10mm drop at the back of the TT with a 1 degree slope.

Do you know exactly how Marinoni measured ctt? Dave Moulton says old english ctt is ctc + 2cm to filter out angle, points and scallops at the top of the seatlug.

And he also talks about how he never would have done it that way if he knew that wasn't really the only way to do it, by then it was too late, he had already built 100's of frames sized the old way. ;)


https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...90c0806530.jpg

merziac 04-01-20 06:41 PM


Originally Posted by 63rickert (Post 21394284)
Old style saddle clamps, even Brooks, are cheap hardware. Lean on the wrench and no way to tell whatís tightening torque and what is just binding and interference. Grease works too but the wrench feel is just not as good and then you have loose grease collecting dirt. I use wax on the serrations as well. Again it improves wrench feel. Also since I started doing that old clamps that had previously slipped become serviceable. You might posit that wax on the serrations changes vibration or harmonics or posit anything you like, seems to work.

Certainly a cheap design but the brooks version will take a lot of torque imo, whether it transmits to a snug adjustment is a whole other thing.

I took it apart and put a fair amount of anti-seize on the nuts and threads of the center shaft, found a better fitting 15mm wrench and applied a serious amount of torque to get it far tighter than it has been before, I think it will hold a lot better, the feel was much better tightening it and was smooth with no binding that I felt, we'll see. ;)

merziac 04-01-20 08:54 PM


Originally Posted by Classtime (Post 21385394)
a bit of helicopter tape can protect that new looking forever paint. I can send you a few inches if you'd like. I use a couple pieces at the head tube and one at the seat stay on my forever bike.

Jeff.

Got it, Tx!

merziac 04-01-20 08:59 PM

:thumb: Quick shout out to all that have chimed in and liked this, I know some of it is a bit odd and that was the point, seems like I wasn't wrong. ;)

Thanks to all, as you can tell, I am going to keep this going for awhile because its never really "done" is it? :foo:

Dfrost 04-01-20 09:16 PM


Originally Posted by merziac (Post 21396059)
Yep, seen it I have, a big part of my Marinoni appreciation, love it. Do you know how much the chrome adds and whats the total on it?

So mine is actually 64 ctt with about 10mm drop at the back of the TT with a 1 degree slope.

Do you know exactly how Marinoni measured ctt? Dave Moulton says old english ctt is ctc + 2cm to filter out angle, points and scallops at the top of the seatlug.

And he also talks about how he never would have done it that way if he knew that wasn't really the only way to do it, by then it was too late, he had already built 100's of frames sized the old way. ;)


https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...90c0806530.jpg

Actually my Marinoni is considered 62cm ctc. I generally use the ctt number since that seems useful these days in conversations about bike size. So my ctt number is just that +half a TT diameter. FWIW, the Klein I had for many years was considered 60cm (yeah, it was too small) and they measured to the top of the actual horizontal TT, not their extended ST.

No idea what a full frame worth of (presumably good old school, full toxic, multi-layer) chrome adds. The complete Marinoni, “bare” with Berthoud Ti-rail saddle on a VO long setback post, Shimano SPD pedals, two King bottle cages weighs right at 24 lbs. I’d double check it now on the digital scale built into my Topeak workstand, but it’s not in bare bike configuration now, since I always have that minimalist Tubus rack, lights, computer, etc. installed.

Maybe with all this spare time these days I’ll do another measurement, without as much of that stuff as I can take off reasonably.

merziac 04-04-20 04:32 PM

Guess I should put this here too.

Pretty much as I hoped/expected.

Strawberry ride report, finally.

1mi pre-ride around the block to shakedown, adjust seat and bars, then measly 10.7mi which is about as far as I go on a ride from home when just going for a ride.

Rides like a dream, smooth on smooth, very nice on rough and crappy, good on hard pack/turf/dirt single track (only about a mile and very little at speed).

The fork is very compliant, soaks up a lot of static and nonsense while tracking rock solid, excellent feel.

Sorry, no pics, I was concerned about rain that was forecast and looked likely but still not yet, should have stayed out. https://www.bikeforums.net/images/smilies/wink.gif

Again, fantastic work from Dave with Andy's parts, piece's, history, tradition and blessing.

And the seat clamp held just fine so far. :rolleyes:

merziac 04-21-20 03:57 PM

Bump for fun. ;)

merziac 05-01-20 02:30 PM

Circling back to ad the weight factor, 24.3lb complete with pedals.

As stated before, the boat anchor seat/clamp/post is 2.4, so lose 1 or more there, change out the heavy tires, lose the pedals and it goes into the 21lb range.

I may swap some around to see if that happens. ;)

RiddleOfSteel 05-01-20 06:24 PM

I was going to guess right around 25 lbs as that is what the Paramount is. May not have a boat anchor seat post, but still has a B17 and triple gearing. It seems around 24-26 lbs is where the bike tells the road what to do/feel while also not being a total tank. Below 20 lb is fun, but the road is for sure telling the bike and the rider what they should be feeling. I think that the leather saddle, more upright seating position, and carbon crank are really helping the frame and tire combo out on ride. The more saddle-to-bum contact (generally due to more upright torso orientation) = the more it feels like I'm sitting in a car's seat or on a couch = the more comfortable I feel and the more comfortable my brain tells me to feel. To the point that I think I need a seatbelt! :lol:

Those tires are 32mm right? They certainly look it. Not too "overly-heavy" for their size. My (used) Soma Supple Vitesse EX "33mm" tires (measure a solid 30mm) are in the 275g range and Continental specs 340g for the 32mm variant, and 295g for the 28mm. 1/4 of a pound I suppose does add up, but at least you get a high TPI count. :)

merziac 05-01-20 07:25 PM


Originally Posted by RiddleOfSteel (Post 21449921)
I was going to guess right around 25 lbs as that is what the Paramount is. May not have a boat anchor seat post, but still has a B17 and triple gearing. It seems around 24-26 lbs is where the bike tells the road what to do/feel while also not being a total tank. Below 20 lb is fun, but the road is for sure telling the bike and the rider what they should be feeling. I think that the leather saddle, more upright seating position, and carbon crank are really helping the frame and tire combo out on ride. The more saddle-to-bum contact (generally due to more upright torso orientation) = the more it feels like I'm sitting in a car's seat or on a couch = the more comfortable I feel and the more comfortable my brain tells me to feel. To the point that I think I need a seatbelt! :lol:

Those tires are 32mm right? They certainly look it. Not too "overly-heavy" for their size. My (used) Soma Supple Vitesse EX "33mm" tires (measure a solid 30mm) are in the 275g range and Continental specs 340g for the 32mm variant, and 295g for the 28mm. 1/4 of a pound I suppose does add up, but at least you get a high TPI count. :)

You and Mr. Frost are in the same camp he was at 25 as well. The tires are 32's.

You bring up a great point about the "target" weight, hadn't thought about it that way before and don't really have your perspective having meticulously built so many bikes and wrung them out properly but it clicks now, spot on.

I will definitely lighten this up to test out the theory for myself but am all in on the the rationale so we'll see. ;)

merziac 05-02-20 03:15 AM


Originally Posted by Classtime (Post 21384230)
Man, that is a lot of steel. Handlebars too?

Circling back, Rivendell designed Nitto noodle 177, wide, flat, 26 clamp matches the VO stem, scored at the co-op for cheap. ;)

merziac 06-02-20 12:15 PM


Originally Posted by nlerner (Post 21384304)
Cool! The straight-pin steel seat post and clamp throw me for a bit of a loop, both aesthetically and because those clamps have a tendency to loosen up.

Circling back for a bump on this, been commuting on this quite a bit so probably at least 500 mi. so far, 3 tilt adjustments and no clamp slippage nonsense whatsoever. ;)


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