Trouble adjusting headset
 

After I tighten the top locknut it tightens the headset even though I am holding the cupnut with another wrench to keep it from moving.
Am I missing something?

Keep backing off the top cup, if it still won't adjust correctly the top cup is stripped.

Generally if the top cup is adjusted correctly without the locknut tightened down it will need to be backed off about 1/8th turn for it to be correct once the locknut is tightened.

There's often a keyed washer between the top cup and the locknut.

I occasionally have that happen. Sometimes there is a loose enough tolerance in the threads that the cup nut gets pushed down tighter. There are two things I do to remedy this.
1. After you tighten it see if you can back the cup nut off a bit against the lock nut. Sometimes this works. If not do 2.
2. Before tightening the lock nut, back the cup nut off a quarter turn and then tighten the lock nut. If it still tightens too much or is too loose adjust back off the lock nut and accordingly and re-tighten.

Welcome to the wonderful world of fussy cup and cone adjustment, most if not all will require some touchy, feely, hold your mouth just right finesse.

BB's, hubs and HS's can all fall into this, you have to embrace it, suss it out and master it, good tools and patience are a must.

The fork often turns during this to muck things up as well, worn threads, thread slop, poor threading all conspire to make it challenging to get right. ;)

I finding it very fussy. If I tighten it to where the steering feels right such as what Sheldon Brown terms as the bars will flop t the side
when you pick it up I can feel movement when I put on the front brake and rock it.When I tighten it to get rid of the looseness the bars are stiffer.
There seems to be no middle ground.

:thumb:

Yep, no mans land. This is the big deal and it is why we now have cartridge this and threadless that.

Most don't want to buckle down and focus long or hard enough to learn the skill, not realizing its not the task at hand but the tenacity and stick with it ness that will get them to many other places in time.

Take a step back, gather your Chi and go after it with all the patience you can muster, think micrometer and remember football is a game of inches.

The tip above can be a good one if you can end up at tight. Back the cup into the washer/locknut, some times you can turn them together just before good and tight. ;)

I've tried those things but to get the steering as loose as on my other bikes I have to back the cup nut a lot to where the fork is very loose. It does steer nice and smoothly
now just not as easily as my other bikes do.

Did you replace the headset or you just servicing the bearings?

I cleaned out the cups and races and replaced the caged bearings with new loose bearings.

Make sure there isn't any play in your brake arms as this can me mistaken for a knock in the headset.

I don't think it's that. If it were that it would knock when the headset was tighter wouldn't it?

Lets say for the sake of argument that the bearings are the right size, how many did you put in, in place of the caged ones and did you keep them?

There are a couple different schools of thought on this and they come with challenges of their own, you may be encountering that now, I would put the old ones back in and see if it can be adjusted correctly to rule out all else.

Then reevaluate the bearings and the method of replacement to see if it makes sense for sure.

If the replacement bearings don't take up the correct amount of slack or too much, it can be impossible to adjust correctly.

There were 20 caged bearings taken out and 20 loose put back in.I know some
say you can add and extra bearing if you were putting then in loose but I think
they would have been pretty tight. The old bearings had developed indexing which is why I use loose bearings

Did you look at the races with a magnifying glass or loupe?

Yes I could see barely visible dimpling

I'm sure you could keep using it but if it were mine, I would replace the headset

If they are the same size, you cannot do 1 for 1, they are fighting the indents and each other, too much and not enough wiggle room all at the same time.

This is at least part of the problem, stick an extra in there for practice and see. You will ultimately probably also need to reclock the lower cup and upper race in the headtube.

The method is to put as many in that will fit and remove one, so if 2 more fit in then only one extra may do the trick.

Is that something I should try myself? I am just to the point where I can clean and change the bearings in the bottom bracket,wheel hubs
and head tube

It's possible that the headset was never adjusted properly which caused the dimpling which could mean that the head-tube was never faced accurately.

Worst case scenario is that you will need to get the head-tube faced at a bike shop and then install a new headset.

before we assume the worst, follow the advice of [MENTION=425004]merziac[/MENTION]

You will need some tools, they are pretty easy to improvise but can be challenging. I have done it the hard way for years and recently tooled up and was glad as I have had a couple that went much better for having a proper press, race setter and cup remover, really glad I stepped up, the right tools do a better job especially when the parts don't cooperate.

Are you sure that you have the right number of balls? It's possible to have too many that seem to fit, but mess up adjustment. To quote a note in Sutherland's 6th edition: "On some models it may be possible to add 'one last ball,' but it is usually better to resist the temptation; too many balls can damage the bearing." Sutherland's also lists the spec number of balls, both upper and lower, for many headset models. Number of balls matters not only for the top bearing, but also for the bottom!

Brinnelling of the races (typically upper race of lower bearing) will always make satisfactory adjustment more challenging to impossible. As will reuse of old balls.

Upon re-reading, I see that you've replaced caged balls with uncaged. In that case, any brinnelling pattern won't match the way the balls sit naturally, so expect some problems. Also, if I were doing such a loose balls replacement, I'd be likely to add a ball. If you consult Sutherland's, you'll see that most specs are for 22 or 25 balls, rather than 20. Somewhere I've seen advice to insert as many balls as necessary to "fill" the race completely, and then remove 2!

If you end up replacing the headset, consider having the race seats on the frame & fork milled/faced to be true (when that's possible again). It's not that expensive. Having this done may require use of a thicker washer under the top locknut to preserve the necessary clearance between top of fork steerer tube and the lip of the locknut, or trimming the top of the steerer slightly, since facing is removing material that affects the stack and fit.

Great discussion! Headset adjustment was the last of the skills to realize, for me.