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Another bike ID request.

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Another bike ID request.

Old 05-09-20, 10:46 AM
  #1  
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Another bike ID request.

Friend brought this bike frame by. He stripped the red paint off but it still has a frozen seatpost and dent in top tube. I guess he has a lot of free time, lol. Anyway, interesting frame. Campy drop outside and cable guides, heart shaped cutouts on lugs, unique brake guides on top tube, shield type sticker shadow on fork, English bottom bracket. It has ST52 stamped on bottom bracket and fork plus a 01 on bb. Bike was built with Shimano 600.




Any ideas are appreciated.
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Old 05-09-20, 10:48 AM
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Old 05-09-20, 10:51 AM
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Old 05-09-20, 10:58 AM
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That color always makes me think "Falcon" and with the Campy bits and fancy lugs it MIGHT be a top model San Remo (IF a Falcon) but I'd need to research the details. Pretty likely this is 531 DB
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Old 05-09-20, 10:59 AM
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Originally Posted by curbtender View Post
He thought this might be a good idea, I don't know...
https://www.sheldonbrown.com/dent-removal.html
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Old 05-09-20, 11:19 AM
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Not so sure about "Falcon" after a quick survey of online pix, sure there are a LOT with same "robin's egg" blue paint, but MOST of the high-end San Remos (and Falcon had a LOT of models called "San Remo" but followed by numbers) used chrome lugs and rear triangle and often the forkcrown was full-sloping. BUT there are exceptions, especially as frame-fashions changed over the years. Here's one pic that shows a seatstay cap with some hatch-lines that are a LITTLE similar, but...not a spot-on match.Let's hear from some experts! juvela MauriceMoss T-Mar etc.
As far as the TT dent I'd say sand it, apply some epoxy putty and smooth wth iso-alcohol before it sets, then sand and feather when hard then touch up the paint...pretend it never happened! BTW any sign of headbadge holes in the headtube?

Last edited by unworthy1; 05-09-20 at 11:24 AM.
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Old 05-09-20, 11:30 AM
  #7  
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Nice frame. The paintwork definitely looks English. The picture of the BB shell reminded me of this Dawes:

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Old 05-09-20, 12:03 PM
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That blue looks right. Do you recognize that sticker shadow at all?
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Old 05-09-20, 12:35 PM
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Originally Posted by curbtender View Post
That blue looks right. Do you recognize that sticker shadow at all?

a 531 fork decal AFAIK:, and exact year/style depends on age of this frame, the radius corners varied a bit and re-pops may not all be accurate
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Old 05-09-20, 12:51 PM
  #10  
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-----

lug pattern appears to be Prugnat F4

pattern launch May 1976




would think frame dates from shortly thereafter...

unable to see anything suggestive of Ernie Clements heritage

joinery of taper tube ends may twig the memory of a reader; stays are simple domed design while blades exhibit the "chisel" style. "usually" a builder will follow the same pattern front and rear...

shell appears it may be BOCAMA although NERVEX also offered a pattern nearly identical to the BOCAMA one...

regarding top tube guides -

these simple rings/ferrules are more commonly encountered when used a housing guides on the chainstay or as guides for fingertip cables. frame appears to have been done just as top tube cable housing guides were beginning to come into fashion. perhaps customer requested them but builder had no purpose-made top tube guides on hand so put these to work in this spot out of convenience.

national origin -

appears to me we are in the anglophone world here. the domed stay ends would tend to be contraindicative of a U.S. origin. used widely in Britain. however, the Campag Nr. 621 chainstay stop is sending the opposite message. while common for Brit builders to employ the Campag bb cable guides they "usually" use something other than the 621 for a chainstay stop. the 621 was used widely by yank makers.

curbtender -

one exploration you could undertake would be the shell interior to examine the extent of tube mitre done and the presence or absence of pinning.

-----

Last edited by juvela; 05-09-20 at 02:07 PM. Reason: addition
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Old 05-09-20, 03:04 PM
  #11  
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Originally Posted by unworthy1 View Post

a 531 fork decal AFAIK:, and exact year/style depends on age of this frame, the radius corners varied a bit and re-pops may not all be accurate
I was looking at it as one long sticker instead of two, thanks.

Negative image.
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Old 05-09-20, 03:15 PM
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Originally Posted by juvela View Post
-----

lug pattern appears to be Prugnat F4

pattern launch May 1976




would think frame dates from shortly thereafter...

unable to see anything suggestive of Ernie Clements heritage

joinery of taper tube ends may twig the memory of a reader; stays are simple domed design while blades exhibit the "chisel" style. "usually" a builder will follow the same pattern front and rear...

shell appears it may be BOCAMA although NERVEX also offered a pattern nearly identical to the BOCAMA one...

regarding top tube guides -

these simple rings/ferrules are more commonly encountered when used a housing guides on the chainstay or as guides for fingertip cables. frame appears to have been done just as top tube cable housing guides were beginning to come into fashion. perhaps customer requested them but builder had no purpose-made top tube guides on hand so put these to work in this spot out of convenience.

national origin -

appears to me we are in the anglophone world here. the domed stay ends would tend to be contraindicative of a U.S. origin. used widely in Britain. however, the Campag Nr. 621 chainstay stop is sending the opposite message. while common for Brit builders to employ the Campag bb cable guides they "usually" use something other than the 621 for a chainstay stop. the 621 was used widely by yank makers.

curbtender -

one exploration you could undertake would be the shell interior to examine the extent of tube mitre done and the presence or absence of pinning.

-----
I forwarded link to owner. I'll update when he gets back to me. Thanks for your input.
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Old 05-09-20, 04:13 PM
  #13  
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-----

one item not as yet discussed by posters is the possible meaning of the ST52 marking.

the frame appears slightly too large to my eye for it to measure 52 cm c-t-c so have been thinking it represents the builder's fifty-second effort.

does it appear to others that it might be a 52cm?

looks to have been done about 1977 and Britain was still employing inch sizes for frames fairly widely at this time.

had assumed the ST to be the maker's initials but perhaps it may have another meaning...

-----
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Old 05-09-20, 05:08 PM
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Originally Posted by juvela View Post
-----

one item not as yet discussed by posters is the possible meaning of the ST52 marking.

the frame appears slightly too large to my eye for it to measure 52 cm c-t-c so have been thinking it represents the builder's fifty-second effort.

does it appear to others that it might be a 52cm?

looks to have been done about 1977 and Britain was still employing inch sizes for frames fairly widely at this time.

had assumed the ST to be the maker's initials but perhaps it may have another meaning...

-----
It measure 58cm c-t . He was thinking Mercian, but I'm not sure of the serial#. Also has that faint 01 on the bb.
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Old 05-09-20, 06:05 PM
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-----

thank you so much for the speedy response, additional information & photo

there are/were a number of small to medium size operations in Britain where several people built frames, all of which received one badge

in such case each maker would have their own mark

see nothing here to suggest Mercian-ness

a retail shop near my home was a Mercian agent for > forty years so have had the opportunity to see in person quite a number of Mercian examples through time

"usually" one would expect a Mercian to show somewhat nicer finish & have never seen one to come through exhibiting domed stay ends nor with this lug pattern

domed stay ends are typically seen on production efforts as they are easier/cheaper/faster than other treatments; not something one would usually expect to find on an artisan produced effort

me "WAG" (and it is very W) is that the frame represents the fifty-second effort of someone working alone they may have built only a certain number and then gone on to other pursuits...or they may have stayed with it and become somewhat known

the shell image is interesting it appears that the builder gave "fuller throat" to the joint of the rh chainstay than they did of the lh chainstay - by at least six mm. makes one wonder if chainstays the same length

once the big name players arrive your information about the frame will suddenly get much deeper/better/fuller


-----
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Old 05-09-20, 06:17 PM
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Reminds me of Dawes.
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Old 05-09-20, 06:48 PM
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The braze-on assortment points a bit later than the rear dropouts. Not definitive, but worth noting.
the paint looks of decent application.
the stamps in the BB and steerer could be a paint shop tracker?

The detailing on the top of the seat stays also presents to me someone who has done this before- a pro

the fork is a mismatch end treatment to the frame- replacement fork?

the stay insertion treatment at the bottom bracket... I will be generous and say not artisan.

I will toss 70s Bob Jackson. A dart into the dark.
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Old 05-09-20, 06:49 PM
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Forgot - I skipped anyone noting the seatpost issue?
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Old 05-09-20, 08:14 PM
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Originally Posted by repechage View Post
Forgot - I skipped anyone noting the seatpost issue?
Yes, he has a heep of work to do. Garbage saves can be a challenge.
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Old 05-09-20, 08:17 PM
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...appears to be one which could be jacked out...


-----
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Old 05-09-20, 08:41 PM
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Originally Posted by juvela View Post
-----

...appears to be one which could be jacked out...


-----
I gave him some all thread. Never tried it, but was thinking he could put some washers and a nut on the bottom and a slide weight at the top. Better him than me, lol.
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Old 05-09-20, 09:32 PM
  #22  
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-----

...what made me think of jacking was the bit of the pillar above the lug

this allows the pillar stub to be used as a guide for the piece of tubing used as a fulcrum for jacking...

the forum has had scores of threads on seized pillar removal so i should not go off topic and head down that well trodden path...

-----
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Old 05-10-20, 11:29 AM
  #23  
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the painting of the "top eyes" is so very British. the differing of the drops/fork tips is very vexing
(I realize I didn't really add anything)
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