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Why would a 1982 Trek 710 have Ishiwata tubing?

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Why would a 1982 Trek 710 have Ishiwata tubing?

Old 06-19-20, 03:36 PM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by natterberry View Post
I truly don’t understand your logic.

My comment about “sitting in front of my bike” was because it was one that was being offered as a potential model - but it doesn’t line up at all.

Literally everything points to 311. We need a serial.
OK, so the catalog colors, braze ons and decals all match a 1982 311... but I'm not buying it. It looks like it could be a 92 Jazz By Trek Lattitude that's been modified to look like an 82 311. You'll need to get out a protractor and a ruler- as well as a hypersonic caliper to check the tubing gauge. Make sure to bring an UV light to see if they shaped Bondo into faux lugs, then matched the original paint.

No- a 311 is too easy... that's just what they'd be expecting us to think...
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Old 06-19-20, 04:26 PM
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Originally Posted by madpogue View Post
Good sleuthing on natterberry 's part, BTW. My first clue was the absence of water bottle braze-ons, and that icky band-mounted cage.
I’d rather not admit how much and how many times I’ve looked through those scans.

Originally Posted by The Golden Boy View Post
OK, so the catalog colors, braze ons and decals all match a 1982 311... but I'm not buying it. It looks like it could be a 92 Jazz By Trek Lattitude that's been modified to look like an 82 311. You'll need to get out a protractor and a ruler- as well as a hypersonic caliper to check the tubing gauge. Make sure to bring an UV light to see if they shaped Bondo into faux lugs, then matched the original paint.

No- a 311 is too easy... that's just what they'd be expecting us to think...
thank you for this.

I actually heard a rumor someone panto’d this from a Masi.
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Old 06-19-20, 04:32 PM
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I had a Trek 600 series bike that was made from Ishiwata 022 a while back IIRC.. did not seem to be a bad bike
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Old 06-19-20, 04:37 PM
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Originally Posted by SamSpade1941 View Post
I had a Trek 600 series bike that was made from Ishiwata 022 a while back IIRC.. did not seem to be a bad bike
You might be remembering that wrong.

Any 600 series bike will have a 531 main triangle. The stays and fork could vary from year to year and model to model- but ALWAYS 531 main tubes.
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Old 06-19-20, 04:41 PM
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Originally Posted by The Golden Boy View Post
You might be remembering that wrong.

Any 600 series bike will have a 531 main triangle. The stays and fork could vary from year to year and model to model- but ALWAYS 531 main tubes.
You are probably right ill have to dig through my photos I could have swore it had ishiwata 022 stickers (shrug)
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Old 06-19-20, 04:50 PM
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Originally Posted by SamSpade1941 View Post
You are probably right ill have to dig through my photos I could have swore it had ishiwata 022 stickers (shrug)
Might have been an older 500 series bike- Trek's literature said the Ishiwata tubing was the "best value" and "comparable to the most expensive European tubing." From everyone you read here- that seems to be in line with people's opinions-
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Old 06-19-20, 08:52 PM
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Originally Posted by noglider View Post
The choice of tubing wasn't random. According to my unreliable memory, there was at least one threesome of models that differed only in tubing because some people thought it made more of a difference than it really does. Some wanted Columbus or Reynolds because they believed one of those was best, and some wanted equivalent but to save a little money. So Trek provided.
Yes, I agree completely and your memory has it right - the frame models were mostly only different in terms of tubing brand and paint, and hence price. I strongly doubt Trek badged a Reynolds frame as an Ishiwata, and vice versa. If a person tries to use SN to identify what model a frame is (not what geometry), we should not be saying a 710 could be made of Magny.

My hypothesis was that it's a repaint and correct decals were not re-applied, but the conclusion it's a 311 is a simpler explanation - Occam's Razor.
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Old 06-19-20, 09:27 PM
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Originally Posted by noglider View Post
The choice of tubing wasn't random. According to my unreliable memory, there was at least one threesome of models that differed only in tubing because some people thought it made more of a difference than it really does. Some wanted Columbus or Reynolds because they believed one of those was best, and some wanted equivalent but to save a little money. So Trek provided.
What I remember is that when Trek made only framesets and sold bike kits to go with them they made the Ishiwata 510 sport and 530 racing, the Reynolds 710 sport and 730 racing and the Columbus 910 sport and 930 racing. Two designs in three tubesets = six variations.
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Old 06-19-20, 09:45 PM
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Originally Posted by madpogue View Post
That's not been my experience, with any rack I've mounted. I've found that the most stable are those with integral seat stay rods (e.g. Blackburn SS-1). Racks employing twisted stainless stay braces attached to "cheerio" seat stay braze-ons, or into threaded eyelets in holes in the stays (seen some '90s MTBs/hybrids) are second. Stainless stay braces attached to "p-straps" on the stays, or a single brace going to the brake bridge, allow the rack to move more. This is just personal experience, bike commuting for work for 20+ years, and my wife and I doing 90% of our shopping by bike.

Good sleuthing on natterberry 's part, BTW. My first clue was the absence of water bottle braze-ons, and that icky band-mounted cage.
Thats fair.
If I have a heavy load I’ll take a touring bike. It’s likely I never loaded a single attachment point rack to the point that it’s instability was noticeably to me. I’m also religious about using two panniers and balancing, so if you’ve noticed a wiggle with only one pannier that’s would also make sense.
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Old 06-20-20, 05:56 AM
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Originally Posted by thumpism View Post
What I remember is that when Trek made only framesets and sold bike kits to go with them they made the Ishiwata 510 sport and 530 racing, the Reynolds 710 sport and 730 racing and the Columbus 910 sport and 930 racing. Two designs in three tubesets = six variations.
It got a little more complicated as time went on! At least in the older Trek literature on Vintage-trek, they had essentially two geometries and just a few tubing choices. The second two digits were the model, and the first one was the tube maker. So a 710 could not then have been "Ishiwata or Reynolds," but a Trek Sport-Touring (x10) could be either Columbus (910), Reynolds (710), or Ishiwata (510). No such thing as an Ishiwata 710.

Yes, it's semantical, but we were asking if it is a 710. It makes and made no sense to say it's a 710 but it's Ishiwata Magny. One may imagine that Ishi frames got mis-queued and were stamped and sold as a 710, but I bet this was one of the major cases of production control failure that Trek worked to prevent - just shoving dollars out of the door. Henry Ford probably solved this problem in 1910. Again, didn't wanna shove dollars out the "ship the product" door.
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Old 06-20-20, 06:11 AM
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Originally Posted by thumpism View Post
I had a new 710 frameset back then and it had the Reynolds stickers on frame and fork. A buddy had a 510 (I later got one used) and it had the Ishiwata 022 stickers on frame and fork. None of the Treks I assembled or sold back then had tubing stickers they should not have had. The seller is misinformed, blowing smoke, or ignorant; you decide which. If you want the bike that's not a bad price but be aware of what you're actually getting.

My 510:
This is why I thought it might be a repaint.
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Old 06-20-20, 08:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Road Fan View Post
It got a little more complicated as time went on! At least in the older Trek literature on Vintage-trek, they had essentially two geometries and just a few tubing choices. The second two digits were the model, and the first one was the tube maker. So a 710 could not then have been "Ishiwata or Reynolds," but a Trek Sport-Touring (x10) could be either Columbus (910), Reynolds (710), or Ishiwata (510). No such thing as an Ishiwata 710.
True.

Yes, it's semantical, but we were asking if it is a 710. It makes and made no sense to say it's a 710 but it's Ishiwata Magny. One may imagine that Ishi frames got mis-queued and were stamped and sold as a 710, but I bet this was one of the major cases of production control failure that Trek worked to prevent
A close look at the dropout treatment could be definitive. The Mangy frames all used Japan-built sub-assemblies (rear triangles and forks) with domed ends. The 7nn series frames were fully built in Waterloo and had radiused stay ends.
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Old 06-20-20, 10:06 AM
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Originally Posted by seedsbelize View Post
I see that too
That was my thought.
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Old 06-20-20, 11:25 AM
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Originally Posted by JohnDThompson View Post
True.



A close look at the dropout treatment could be definitive. The Mangy frames all used Japan-built sub-assemblies (rear triangles and forks) with domed ends. The 7nn series frames were fully built in Waterloo and had radiused stay ends.
I'll have to talk to you more, John! I just got a 1982 720 that has fantastically thinned lugs. It has the radiused stay and fork blade ends. My 1984 610 does not have those, it has the domed ends exactly as in your photo. Also my original 610 fork was made in Japan and is marked Tange. I presume the fork and rear triangles were Asian-built as well?

Can you say what the thread is for the dropout axle positioner screws? The ones on my bike have the little Trek plastic "knobs" on it, but both should be replaced. One seems seized, the other is ok. If the Campagnolo ones will fit I would prefer to get some of those.

Also, do you have any experience or insight regarding whether a fork with 2 cm more offset will cause any handling problems, working with the long chainstays? I anticipate long rides with light loads, a saddle bag possibly with a front rack bag. Such a fork should also reduce toe interference when I add fenders.
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Old 06-20-20, 03:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Road Fan View Post
My 1984 610 does not have those, it has the domed ends exactly as in your photo. Also my original 610 fork was made in Japan and is marked Tange. I presume the fork and rear triangles were Asian-built as well?
Yes, they were.

Can you say what the thread is for the dropout axle positioner screws? The ones on my bike have the little Trek plastic "knobs" on it, but both should be replaced. One seems seized, the other is ok. If the Campagnolo ones will fit I would prefer to get some of those.
With a couple pretty obscure exceptions, the dropout adjusters are almost universally 3mm x 0.5mm thread. Campagnolo, Shimano, SunTour, etc. all should work in the Trek dropouts.

Also, do you have any experience or insight regarding whether a fork with 2 cm more offset will cause any handling problems, working with the long chainstays? I anticipate long rides with light loads, a saddle bag possibly with a front rack bag. Such a fork should also reduce toe interference when I add fenders.
Do you have reason to think that toe overlap will be an issue with fenders? I have fenders on my 720 (and 27" wheels) and haven't noticed overlap to be a problem.
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Old 06-20-20, 05:02 PM
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Ishiwata Magny Tubing

The word MAGNY has been batted around in a number of posts in this thread.

Ishiwata Magny was a different beast than the standard Ishiwata Chrome Molybdenum 015, 017, 019 & 022 tubing which was made of 4130 alloy steel like Tange and Columbus.

Magny tubing was made of a Manganese Alloy Steel with a Mn content of about 2%. It had about 2/3 to 3/4 the strength of 4130 steel. For that reason the tubing wall thickness was thicker to compensate which made the frames heavier.

Tange Mangaloy tubing was about the same. Both Magny and Mangaloy tubing were less expensive than 4130 and Reynolds 531. Those tubes were used primarily on lower mid range models.

Note: the weights for Magny-V and Magny-X appear to be transposed in the chart below....

Lest it be known, one reason many of the top US frame builders in the 70's and 80's didn't put tubing stickers on their frames was they used the best, lowest priced tubing they could buy at the time..... Super Vitus, Ishiwata, Tange whatever!

Frequently those brands of tubes could be had for less than half the cost of Reynolds 531 and a third of the cost of Columbus tubing. The quality of the tubing and performance was the same as the high priced spread!

When buying tubing in lot quantities of 100 sets, a savings of $20 to $30 a set was a nice chunk of change.
All the fretting about what brand of tubing a quality frame is made of seems like worrying where the aluminum in a Porsche engine came from....

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Old 06-20-20, 09:36 PM
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Originally Posted by verktyg View Post
The word MAGNY has been batted around in a number of posts in this thread.

Ishiwata Magny was a different beast than the standard Ishiwata Chrome Molybdenum 015, 017, 019 & 022 tubing which was made of 4130 alloy steel like Tange and Columbus.

Magny tubing was made of a Manganese Alloy Steel with a Mn content of about 2%. It had about 2/3 to 3/4 the strength of 4130 steel. For that reason the tubing wall thickness was thicker to compensate which made the frames heavier.

Tange Mangaloy tubing was about the same. Both Magny and Mangaloy tubing were less expensive than 4130 and Reynolds 531. Those tubes were used primarily on lower mid range models.

Note: the weights for Magny-V and Magny-X appear to be transposed in the chart below....

Lest it be known, one reason many of the top US frame builders in the 70's and 80's didn't put tubing stickers on their frames was they used the best, lowest priced tubing they could buy at the time..... Super Vitus, Ishiwata, Tange whatever!

Frequently those brands of tubes could be had for less than half the cost of Reynolds 531 and a third of the cost of Columbus tubing. The quality of the tubing and performance was the same as the high priced spread!

When buying tubing in lot quantities of 100 sets, a savings of $20 to $30 a set was a nice chunk of change.
All the fretting about what brand of tubing a quality frame is made of seems like worrying where the aluminum in a Porsche engine came from....

verktyg
Thanks! As you've read, the thread started with a discussion of identifying the model to see if it's worth the price. Such a discussion always involves "what's it made of?" It did not start with "Oh it can't be any good if it's only Magny. It looks like Magny X is similar to 022 and to Columbus SL, while Magny V is similar to Columbus SP, at least looking at the main tube butting profiles. But the whole "710 can't be Magny was based on trying to use all the available clues to explain as close as possible the discrepancies.
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Old 06-21-20, 12:12 AM
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More on Ishiwata and Tange Tubing

I can't find the specs anywhere but I'm almost certain that the early Ishiwata Magny main tubes were straight gauge not butted, Tange Mangaloy too.

Both of those were made of seamed tubing. Once a seamed tube has been drawn over a mandrel and butted, the minor shortcomings of the seams are reduced.

Here's a post I did 2 years ago:

80s Schwinn Tempo Tange tubing vs Columbus?

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Old 06-21-20, 07:37 AM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by verktyg View Post
I can't find the specs anywhere but I'm almost certain that the early Ishiwata Magny main tubes were straight gauge not butted, Tange Mangaloy too.

Both of those were made of seamed tubing.
Ishiwata Mangy tubing was butted; Tange Mangaloy was straight-gauge. Both were seamed tubes.
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