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Why would a 1982 Trek 710 have Ishiwata tubing?

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Why would a 1982 Trek 710 have Ishiwata tubing?

Old 06-18-20, 07:10 PM
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jlaw
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Why would a 1982 Trek 710 have Ishiwata tubing?

Supposedly this is a 1982 Trek 710. If the serial number provided is correct, then it should be.

However, seller states that it has 'Ishiwata Magny X' tubing and the tubing decal at the top of the seat tube in this photo does not look like a Reynolds decal - looks like the white numbers that are found on the Ishiwata decals. According to vintage brochures, the 710s from 1982 (and 1981) used Reynolds 531. The 710 is also supposed to have rear rack eyelets which appear to be missing.

The frame (dark blue) and seat tube panel (pewter) colors look correct -but the head tube does not have the pewter panel color.

The 1982 710 was sold as a complete bike and also a frame and fork.

Any ideas? Not legit.? Maybe a 614?

1982 brochure: https://vintage-trek.com/TrekBrochure1982.htm

Ad photos




Brochure photo - 614


Brochure photo - 7xx


Last edited by jlaw; 06-18-20 at 07:16 PM.
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Old 06-18-20, 07:18 PM
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‘82 311
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Old 06-18-20, 08:03 PM
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Fork bent?
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Old 06-18-20, 08:08 PM
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At around that time, they made frames with with Reynolds, Columbus, and Ishiwata, so the claim doesn't sound bogus to me.
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Old 06-18-20, 08:38 PM
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Please post the serial number.

Tom, are you suggesting the frames were randomly made with Reynolds, Columbus or Ishiwata? I think the questions are, what model does this frame's details indicate that it is, and is the claim of Ishiwata plausible? For example, if the SN indicates it is a 610 frame, and the coloring is that of a 610, then it's probably not a 710. Were 610s made of Ishi in that model year? My guess is no, at least not the three main tubes. What were the stays and fork? How much can we tell with evidence?
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Old 06-18-20, 08:39 PM
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Originally Posted by natterberry View Post
‘82 311

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Old 06-18-20, 09:23 PM
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Originally Posted by SurferRosa View Post
Fork bent?
I see that too
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Old 06-18-20, 10:16 PM
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That bike looks identical to my 1981 412 that I bought new, same color, with Ishiwatta 022 tubes.
Ishiwatta tubing was every bit as good and as light as 531 tubing.
Mine had Silstar cranks, Suntour VxGt gear changers, Ridida 1320 27" rims with Suntour Gyro hubs and an SR stem.
The only problem is that those decals didn't come out to 1982. I'd say maybe it was repainted because those decals were easy to find for a while but the Ishiwatta 022 decals are tough to find in the orignal foil style.
There was a lot of talk back in the day that a few companies would slap which ever decal set they had on a bike to make it match a particular spec too.
A buddy of mine had an identical 412 bought within a few weeks of mine that came with Miche front hubs and Cyclone derailleurs, and I've read of a few others that came with different components as well. That tells me Trek wasn't so much 'by the book' when it came to matching brochure specs.
My gut feeling is that the seller likely don't know what he's got, to me it looks like a 1981 412 on which someone placed a set of 1982 seat post decals, or is some sort of mid year model or carry over. There were a few models back in the day that didn't make it into the brochures, as well as the fact they were still selling bare frames at least up to 1981 or so.
In the late 90's I had stopped at an old Trek dealer to kill some time while on the road for work, I was pretty much hunting parts for my original 412 at the time. I walked out of there with a new old stock Trek frame with no decals that looked identical in every way to my 412, but with no tubing decals. The owner said he really didn't remember what model it was, but he seemed to remember it was ordered as a replacement frame for a customer who never came back to get his frame swapped.
He went digging and came up with a bunch of later full wrarp decals, and several tubing decals that he had. For $100 I walked out with a new old stock frame and fork, a stack of decals for various years, and four pair of new old stock Rigida rims. The stop was just by chance, I hadn't really expected to find anything. I went back there about a year later when I was back in that area and the shop was gone, closed up and emptied out.
I put the bike together as a 412, I hunted down the correct 1981 decals and sold the newer decals off. I found original cranks at another dealer, and I built the bike up using all Suntour parts from my personal stash. I kept it for a few years and sold it on eBay in 2003. It got shipped to Japan.


If that fork is bent, it don't look bent all that bad and are likely fixable.
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Old 06-19-20, 05:35 AM
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It looks like it has eyelets on the dropouts but no where to attach a rack on the seat stays. Weird.
I had a 1982 614 and it had Reynolds 531 main tubes and Ishiwata stays and fork. Suntour Mountech RD and Sugino AT crank.

Last edited by Pemetic2006; 06-19-20 at 02:25 PM.
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Old 06-19-20, 06:26 AM
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Originally Posted by jlaw View Post
Supposedly this is a 1982 Trek 710. If the serial number provided is correct, then it should be.

However, seller states that it has 'Ishiwata Magny X' tubing and the tubing decal at the top of the seat tube in this photo does not look like a Reynolds decal - looks like the white numbers that are found on the Ishiwata decals. According to vintage brochures, the 710s from 1982 (and 1981) used Reynolds 531. The 710 is also supposed to have rear rack eyelets which appear to be missing.

The frame (dark blue) and seat tube panel (pewter) colors look correct -but the head tube does not have the pewter panel color.

The 1982 710 was sold as a complete bike and also a frame and fork.

Any ideas? Not legit.? Maybe a 614?

1982 brochure: https://vintage-trek.com/TrekBrochure1982.htm
Looks to me like it could be a repaint or a misread S/N. I think the 311 page shared showed this blue color with no head panel coloring. If it's a repaint, undesired braze-ons could have been removed and new ones added. It's remotely possible tube lengths or even angles could have been changed. The "Trek" engraved into the top of the seat-stay is decent evidence it's a Trek, and I believe the fork crowns on the 7xx were different. At least the one on my recently acquired 1982 720 is different from the one on my 1984 610. I would also want to know some actual tube lengths and angles. With pre-86 Treks I've found the published frame dimensions to be pretty good though not perfect, but there are differences between the frames that this could be, that should show up if we can measure. Component comparisons don't matter, since these frames are old enough that anything could have been changed.

Lugs and filing? My 720 has much thinner lugs than my 610. Variations in handwork? Maybe, maybe not.

Anybody have more details about the Magny tubset? Butting info and tube gauges? At least for 1982 Trek did not publish those.

Need more information!
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Old 06-19-20, 06:36 AM
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This is a match for the 311.
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Old 06-19-20, 07:00 AM
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Originally Posted by natterberry View Post
This is a match for the 311.
In terms of paint, yes, but in terms of geometry?
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Old 06-19-20, 07:07 AM
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Originally Posted by SurferRosa View Post
Fork bent?
Either that or the angle plus the bricks behind it are giving a strong optical illusion.
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Old 06-19-20, 07:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Road Fan View Post
In terms of paint, yes, but in terms of geometry?
We have two partial pictures from a poor angle, and both indicate a bent fork. I’m finding it hard to evaluate geometry.

Components, tubeset, lack of bottle cage braze ons, color.

Edit 2: Forgot to add the lack of seat stay rack mounts mentioned by a previous poster.


Edit: All of these posts were made as I was sitting in front of my ‘82 614.

Last edited by natterberry; 06-19-20 at 07:48 AM.
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Old 06-19-20, 08:07 AM
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My '80 414 has dropout brazeons and no seat stay rack mounts. Ishiwata 022.
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Old 06-19-20, 08:48 AM
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Originally Posted by natterberry View Post
We have two partial pictures from a poor angle, and both indicate a bent fork. I’m finding it hard to evaluate geometry.

Components, tubeset, lack of bottle cage braze ons, color.

Edit 2: Forgot to add the lack of seat stay rack mounts mentioned by a previous poster.


Edit: All of these posts were made as I was sitting in front of my ‘82 614.
Ok, well, the geo tables indicate all three models have different chainstay lengths. Can't see that well in these pictures and the slot location is a variable. But I think with a tape one can measure. One can also use a phone or a roofer's level to make comparative seat tube angle measurements. And share the data of other Trek owners to try to set a reference point. I can sit in front of my bike, too. It doesn't make much difference, for me.
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Old 06-19-20, 08:58 AM
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I truly don’t understand your logic.

My comment about “sitting in front of my bike” was because it was one that was being offered as a potential model - but it doesn’t line up at all.

Literally everything points to 311. We need a serial.

Last edited by natterberry; 06-19-20 at 09:02 AM.
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Old 06-19-20, 09:08 AM
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Originally Posted by natterberry View Post

You win the prize for finding the vintage brochure for the '82 311 that shows the color scheme clearly - looks just like the advertised bike. Is this from vintage-trek.com?

The 1982 brochure I found does mention that the 311 is made from Ishiwata Magny X - but no photo and the 311 info. is tacked onto the end of brochure after the 9xx series bikes for some reason. Also, your brochure shows Suntour ARX derailleurs, which the advertised bike has.

I think that you are correct - it's a 311 - and another poster suggested a misread serial number. The number is claimed to be 24422 - which would make it a 710. However, in 1982 the 311s were made in a run just before the 710s and if the number is actually 24222 it would be a 311 in a 24" frame (it does appear to be 24").

Mystery solved apparently. Thanks for all the replies from interested.members!

Trek rules!

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Old 06-19-20, 09:18 AM
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Use the HTML version on the left hand side
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Old 06-19-20, 09:18 AM
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https://milwaukee.craigslist.org/bik...137473199.html

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Old 06-19-20, 09:38 AM
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I had a new 710 frameset back then and it had the Reynolds stickers on frame and fork. A buddy had a 510 (I later got one used) and it had the Ishiwata 022 stickers on frame and fork. None of the Treks I assembled or sold back then had tubing stickers they should not have had. The seller is misinformed, blowing smoke, or ignorant; you decide which. If you want the bike that's not a bad price but be aware of what you're actually getting.

My 510:

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Old 06-19-20, 10:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Pemetic2006 View Post
It looks like it has eyelets on the the dropouts but no where to attach a rack on the seat stays. Weird.
that was normal for sport touring bikes. The eyelets are intended for fenders or lightweight racks that attached to the brake bolt. Not intended for a heavier rack that would attach to the seat stays, though of course you could attach one of those racks using p-clamps.
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Old 06-19-20, 12:30 PM
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Originally Posted by AeroGut View Post
that was normal for sport touring bikes. The eyelets are intended for fenders or lightweight racks that attached to the brake bolt. Not intended for a heavier rack that would attach to the seat stays, though of course you could attach one of those racks using p-clamps.
Neither my ‘79 514, nor the ‘84 610 I had have seat stay rack braze’s. And the 514 had 44.5cm chain stays, so it will take panniers very well.

The single attachment to the brake bridge racks seem every bit as solid as the double support versions. The weight is taken by the rack stays, the attachment to the bridge just keeps it from from moving forward or backward.
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Old 06-19-20, 12:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Chr0m0ly View Post
The single attachment to the brake bridge racks seem every bit as solid as the double support versions. The weight is taken by the rack stays, the attachment to the bridge just keeps it from from moving forward or backward.
That's not been my experience, with any rack I've mounted. I've found that the most stable are those with integral seat stay rods (e.g. Blackburn SS-1). Racks employing twisted stainless stay braces attached to "cheerio" seat stay braze-ons, or into threaded eyelets in holes in the stays (seen some '90s MTBs/hybrids) are second. Stainless stay braces attached to "p-straps" on the stays, or a single brace going to the brake bridge, allow the rack to move more. This is just personal experience, bike commuting for work for 20+ years, and my wife and I doing 90% of our shopping by bike.

Good sleuthing on natterberry 's part, BTW. My first clue was the absence of water bottle braze-ons, and that icky band-mounted cage.
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Old 06-19-20, 03:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Road Fan View Post
Please post the serial number.

Tom, are you suggesting the frames were randomly made with Reynolds, Columbus or Ishiwata? I think the questions are, what model does this frame's details indicate that it is, and is the claim of Ishiwata plausible? For example, if the SN indicates it is a 610 frame, and the coloring is that of a 610, then it's probably not a 710. Were 610s made of Ishi in that model year? My guess is no, at least not the three main tubes. What were the stays and fork? How much can we tell with evidence?
The choice of tubing wasn't random. According to my unreliable memory, there was at least one threesome of models that differed only in tubing because some people thought it made more of a difference than it really does. Some wanted Columbus or Reynolds because they believed one of those was best, and some wanted equivalent but to save a little money. So Trek provided.
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